League of Legends [v2]

[choof]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

posting after nfd

[choof]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

posting before litodude

[hi19hi19]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

wow you guys are all shitters

i am so much better than you

because you are all bad







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[L.B.D.D]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

ur all fuckin trash !!!!!!!!!!!!

not even leftover bannaana

like straight up trash from uganda

[Coolboyrulez0]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

ya but what uganda do about it ?

[Razor]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

i'm loling at all the scrublords crying about "blue side has a camera/vision advantage" because theyre too shit to play on purple side !!

[hi19hi19]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

If anything I'm more annoyed about firstpick/firstban inequality and dragon/baron pit inequality than camera angle.

SR should be mirrored across a vertical axis like TT or Heroes of the Storm maps (which are balanced just naturally) instead of diagonally mirrored, Riot with the A+ design decisions.

[stargroup100]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

SR should be vertically mirrored like TT or Heroes of the Storm maps (which are balanced just naturally) instead of diagonally mirrored, Riot with the A+ design decisions.

this would either create very large unused sections of the map and UI or the map design would have to be completely changed

in terms of design, the shape and positioning of the map gives it a lot of room for positive features that promote healthy gameplay, and in this context outweighs the advantages for how it's oriented

unless riot sucks at coding and there's something unbalanced, camera angle doesn't mean jack shit unless there's significant obstruction, which is a fairly minor issue in league

[hi19hi19]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

Yeah the UI would have to be completely changed to accomodate the four small triangles at the side of the minimap that would be created.

I see absolutely no other issues with it. Positive features that promote healthy gameplay? Like red side having three natural entrances to the Baron area compared to blue's four? Like blue side's easy botlane access to a redbuff? And red side's much stronger bluebuff control with the dragon being right there next to it?

EDIT- I mean, unless you're making the argument that huge map imbalances are interesting, which I guess you could, imperfect balance and all that... But there's absolutely NO argument that it's competitively equal this way.

[stargroup100]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

But there's absolutely NO argument that it's competitively equal this way.

If you wanna go there, chess isn't competitively equal either. It's possible that either player could be able to force a win once the game is solved. So why is it not a problem? Because the game is far too complicated to be solved, so absolute balance is not relevant.

And that makes sense too. If you could achieve absolute balance and prove it, then you basically solved the game. A solved game isn't very competitive (or at least isn't strategically rich).

The case with camera angle is an example of this. Sure, it might give one side a slight edge, but unless we're finding out that in the competitive scene one side is really winning more often regardless of other factors, then it's not a problem.

Riot used to have tons of map issues. Remember when Baron was in the back of the pit? Remember when you could push the dragon around? All of the changes they made were meant to balance out the map.

[hi19hi19]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

Riot used to have tons of map issues. Remember when Baron was in the back of the pit? Remember when you could push the dragon around? All of the changes they made were meant to balance out the map.

Wow, they've changed so much, yay. Guess what, that's completely irrelevant to the argument because the problem still exists.
Nice red herring there m8

If you wanna go there, chess isn't competitively equal either. It's possible that either player could be able to force a win once the game is solved. So why is it not a problem? Because the game is far too complicated to be solved, so absolute balance is not relevant.

And that makes sense too. If you could achieve absolute balance and prove it, then you basically solved the game. A solved game isn't very competitive (or at least isn't strategically rich).

The fact a game is too complicated to be solved should not stop a designer from making a change that would bring it closer to absolute balance without reducing any strategic complexity. I mean, I'm really trying to understand this from your point of view here but I can't think of any meaningful strategic depth that would have been lost by rotating the map 45 degrees.

The case with camera angle is an example of this. Sure, it might give one side a slight edge, but unless we're finding out that in the competitive scene one side is really winning more often regardless of other factors, then it's not a problem.

95 red side wins vs 129 blue side wins in the 2014 Spring LCS main season. Teams play equal numbers of times on both sides, so it's not that blue side got all the good players or something.
That's a 57.6% winrate for blue during the season, which went up to 61% in the playoffs.
In before complaining about sample size...
Try going back to the 2013 LCS. Similar numbers. Want more? Go back to August 2012 and we have this nice article from Krepo complaining about the same shit.

It's very fucking obvious that blue side is winning more in the competitive scene and it's laughable that you are even arguing that is not the case.


p.s. I'll agree with Razor that complaining to Riot isn't going to do much. Their game is already such a piece of shit in terms of coding that it's pretty far fetched to imagine them just magically implementing a way to rotate the camera without it breaking something and/or everything (despite the fact it kinda already works). The logical thing to do is just suck it up, know you have a disadvantage when you get red side, and learn to play better to overcome it instead of complaining.

But that doesn't mean we can't discuss why that's a terrible design decision with real effects on the game's competitiveness. My argument is that it was a poor initial design decision to have the map be mirrored diagonally, and I've yet to hear specifics on what additional meaningful strategic depth and healthy gameplay this design choice offered.

[MinaciousGrace]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

aion of strife was diagonally mirrored
so dota was diagonally mirrored
so hon was diagonally mirrored
so lol was diagonally mirrored

there really isnt much more to the issue than that

[Litodude]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

to me it just sounds like someone's mad because theyt aren't good at the game hehe

[Litodude]

Re: League of Legends [v2]


da dream

[stargroup100]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

Wow, they've changed so much, yay. Guess what, that's completely irrelevant to the argument because the problem still exists.
Nice red herring there m8

Remember that I said that absolute balance is not possible. My mentioning of these things is not to show that the map is now balanced, it's to explain that Riot is already aware of these issues and is taking measures to solve them. You seem to be very concerned with competitive balance, so I'm reassuring you that Riot is already doing the best they can and doing a good job.

The fact a game is too complicated to be solved should not stop a designer from making a change that would bring it closer to absolute balance without reducing any strategic complexity. I mean, I'm really trying to understand this from your point of view here but I can't think of any meaningful strategic depth that would have been lost by rotating the map 45 degrees.

Another point I didn't mention yet is that the amount of effort is takes to rotate the map plus other less significant (but still important) issues such as public relations makes it not worth doing because the advantages are so insignificant. Though I do realize you mention this later on yourself too. It's like running 80 miles for a dollar. Yeah, you're a dollar richer, but it's not worth the effort.

But again, absolute balance cannot be achieved and we don't know where it is. For most competitive games with rich strategic depth, balance comes from a Bayesian kind of analysis. You take the probabilities and payoffs of each strategy and weigh them appropriately. To achieve the best possible, most realistic balance, you want the expected payoff of each player to be as close to 0 as possible.

This means that a lot of social factors play into this, as flavor picks and strategies change the probability of other strategies, changing the expected payoff. Rock, paper, scissors is a game where you can outplay the opponent and read them perfectly and win by a large margin, but due to the probabilities the expected payoff for each player is always 0 (1/3 + 0 - 1/3), so the game is balanced.

It's very fucking obvious that blue side is winning more in the competitive scene and it's laughable that you are even arguing that is not the case.

I never said one side isn't balanced. I said that changing the camera angle doesn't fix this problem in this slightest.

Do you honestly think, realistically, that rotating this map by 45 degrees is going to even out or even significantly change that win ratio?

But that doesn't mean we can't discuss why that's a terrible design decision with real effects on the game's competitiveness. My argument is that it was a poor initial design decision to have the map be mirrored diagonally, and I've yet to hear specifics on what additional meaningful strategic depth and healthy gameplay this design choice offered.

Just to reiterate what I said before, Game design mechanics go further than just strategy. You also have to think about what is beneficial to the player, in terms of what makes playing the game easier to understand, more transparent, what is more fun to the player, etc. My whole point this entire time is that camera angle is an insignificant factor to competitive balance, so the choice of camera angle should be determined by these other factors.