League of Legends [v2]

[NFD]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

[hi19hi19]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

aion of strife was diagonally mirrored
so dota was diagonally mirrored
so hon was diagonally mirrored
so lol was diagonally mirrored

there really isnt much more to the issue than that

So because something has been shit for years past, that means we're forced to have it be shit in the future? Gr8 thinking there.

Another point I didn't mention yet is that the amount of effort is takes to rotate the map plus other less significant (but still important) issues such as public relations makes it not worth doing because the advantages are so insignificant.

That's why I said they should have gone with horizontal mirror as an initial design decision. I agree, it's way too late to change it now, that's why I NEVER SAID they should go about changing it now.
I brought it up saying the map should be that way, not that they should change it now. I'm talking about the value of the design decision, not something Riot should do tomorrow.

Do you honestly think, realistically, that rotating this map by 45 degrees is going to even out or even significantly change that win ratio?

Yes, very much so.
Even on one for all mirror mode on Howling Abyss, blue side has a much higher win rate. That's been the key insight recently that has caused all this discussion.
Since champion picks are all equal, pick/ban phase is perfectly equal, objective placement on the map is perfectly equal, literally all that remains to cause the observed imbalance is camera angle.
Therefore, changing the camera angle should have a positive effect on game balance.

Just to reiterate what I said before, Game design mechanics go further than just strategy. You also have to think about what is beneficial to the player, in terms of what makes playing the game easier to understand, more transparent, what is more fun to the player, etc.

I mean, you make my argument for me right here:
It is not beneficial to the player to have the UI and foreground elements in the way.
There is no meaningful strategic depth created by putting the UI in the way.
It is harder to understand what is going on when the UI and foreground elements are in the way and your field of vision on the lane is smaller.
Game is less fun when a key move you could have made was interrupted by having the UI in the way.
You can shrink the UI all you want, it's still more in the way when you are playing red side than blue, along with the field of view being suboptimal for red side. Thus the imbalance in win rates. Simple as that.

to me it just sounds like someone's mad because theyt aren't good at the game hehe

I would not be surprised if over half your post count was this exact post.

[stargroup100]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

That's why I said they should have gone with horizontal mirror as an initial design decision.

Yeah it's really easy to imagine how much impact camera angle would have on a third-person overhead MOBA game. Clearly they should've figured this out while they were designing the game from the beginning.
Even if you were right, hindsight is 20/20.

Yes, very much so.

I guess we'll agree to disagree here then. Correlation does not imply causation.

Since champion picks are all equal, pick/ban phase is perfectly equal, objective placement on the map is perfectly equal, literally all that remains to cause the observed imbalance is camera angle.

Champion picks are certainly not equal, as every champion has VERY different mechanics. Pick/ban phase is not perfectly equal too in the same way that chess isn't perfectly equal; someone gets first pick, someone gets first ban, and you can't pick the same champion twice. Objective placement isn't equal either, since the map isn't symmetrical.


Gonna make quick bullets to each point.

"It is not beneficial to the player to have the UI and foreground elements in the way."
No matter what camera angle you use there is always going to be something in the way.

"There is no meaningful strategic depth created by putting the UI in the way."
I generally agree. But you don't increase strategic depth by getting it out of the way either.

"It is harder to understand what is going on when the UI and foreground elements are in the way and your field of vision on the lane is smaller. Game is less fun when a key move you could have made was interrupted by having the UI in the way."
I also generally agree.

"You can shrink the UI all you want, it's still more in the way when you are playing red side than blue, along with the field of view being suboptimal for red side. Thus the imbalance in win rates. Simple as that."
Correlation does not imply causation. How do you know this isn't because baron opening is facing blue side? I could say that just because baron opening is facing blue side, it makes it easier for blue side to choose when to engage baron, giving them the advantage and therefore causing imbalance in win rates. I could just as well say the same thing for dragon, but dragon is more important since it allows one team to gain early leads, giving red/purple side higher win rates. What method are we using to determine which of these statements hold water?

I would not be surprised if over half your post count was this exact post.

Which is why you ignore him. lol
I wonder if this is gonna bait him into saying something stupid hehe

[hi19hi19]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

Champion picks are certainly not equal, as every champion has VERY different mechanics. Pick/ban phase is not perfectly equal too in the same way that chess isn't perfectly equal; someone gets first pick, someone gets first ban, and you can't pick the same champion twice. Objective placement isn't equal either, since the map isn't symmetrical.

Even on one for all mirror mode on Howling Abyss, blue side has a much higher win rate. That's been the key insight recently that has caused all this discussion.

Please actually read my post before you say something stupid.

Yeah it's really easy to imagine how much impact camera angle would have on a third-person overhead MOBA game. Clearly they should've figured this out while they were designing the game from the beginning.

Players have noticed how big a difference camera angle makes on red side since beta.
Hell, players have noticed how big a difference camera angle makes on scourge side since original dota (though it was way less pronounced in the WC3 engine, in my opinion)
Blizzard noticed this, and made their third-person overhead MOBA game mirrored left/right. Their game is objectively more balanced for having made that decision.

"It is not beneficial to the player to have the UI and foreground elements in the way."
No matter what camera angle you use there is always going to be something in the way.

The issue is not that the UI is in the way, it's that the UI is significantly more in the way if you are on red side. If the map is split into left/right, then having the UI on the bottom means it's equally in the way for both teams, which is better for balance.

"There is no meaningful strategic depth created by putting the UI in the way."
I generally agree. But you don't increase strategic depth by getting it out of the way either.

So no net change to strategic depth, but an increase to competitive balance. I fail to see how that's anything but a recommendation for having the map be split left/right.

Correlation does not imply causation.

That's why we take one for all mirror mode on howling abyss as an experimental case. This mode completely equalizes:
champion picks
pick/ban phase inequality
objective placement

leaving only camera angle as a remaining variable between the teams. Lo and behold blue side still wins significantly more, so we now have causation.

[stargroup100]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

Please actually read my post before you say something stupid.

First of all, you didn't actually present data to demonstrate your claims. I didn't necessarily not believe you, but until I'm sufficiently convinced, I choose not to assume it.

Secondly, a lot of what I'm saying is addressing the way you're presenting your points, not the point itself. See:

So no net change to strategic depth, but an increase to competitive balance.

I was replying to "There is no meaningful strategic depth created by putting the UI in the way." If strategic depth is not relevant, what was the point of that statement?

That's why we take one for all mirror mode on howling abyss as an experimental case...leaving only camera angle as a remaining variable between the teams. Lo and behold blue side still wins significantly more, so we now have causation.

What about matchmaking?
Champions aren't symmetrical left to right either (Blitz hooks with right hand, Diana's Q, possibly certain bounce/directional patterns, etc.), and neither is the map (brush is left on blue, right on purple).
Does this phenomenon happen only at particular levels of play? Particular regions?
What is the actual margin between the two sides? 51/49? 70/30? Is it possible it's just an accident?
Did social stigma influence one side to have an advantage? If we had this mode before anyone brought up the issue, would this still happen?
Could your data be biased in the first place?

There are different degrees to which I think each of these factors play a part, as well as their influence on win rate relative to the issue of camera angle. I'm not saying that I know I'm right, but I'm still not convinced camera angle significantly influences competitive balance.

[Litodude]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

look the kids are fighting

[hi19hi19]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

First of all, you didn't actually present data to demonstrate your claims. I didn't necessarily not believe you, but until I'm sufficiently convinced, I choose not to assume it.

http://sufficientblogging.blogspot.ca/2014/05/the-effect-of-camera-angle-on-lol.html

http://sufficientblogging.blogspot.ca/2014/05/blue-side-advantage-part-2.html

But the camera angle remains. So on this map we actually remove a lot of the other factors which may make the blue side stronger. With this in mind, I quickly found ~3500 games played on this new game mode during the last 4 hours or so. I got the following:

Blue side won: 1946 games
Blue side lost: 1505 games

So overall, blue side wins 56.4% on One For All Mirror Mode

This was the topic that started the whole discussion (it's from the massively popular frontpage Reddit post that prompted Razor to make his remark)
I thought since you were discussing this, you had actually bothered to educate yourself beforehand, but clearly I was wrong.
I'll remember to spoonfeed you everything in the future.

[stargroup100]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

I thought since you were discussing this, you had actually bothered to educate yourself beforehand, but clearly I was wrong.
I'll remember to spoonfeed you everything in the future.

Really? You're gonna blame me for not finding this data myself? I did a quick google search to see if I could find anything but nothing met my expectations, I didn't find statistics that answered my questions. I'm sorry for not being able to find everything myself all the time.

Now that I have more data, I'm more convinced, as the posts you linked offered very specific statistics that do seem to cover what I was looking for. I have changed my mind based on the sufficient evidence I'm given, like I said I would.

Next time we have a discussion I'll be sure to assume you've read every study/analysis/statistic related to the issue at hand.

[hi19hi19]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

Next time we have a discussion I'll be sure to assume you've read every study/analysis/statistic related to the issue at hand.

Next time we are discussing the findings of an article, yes you can assume I've read it. No problem.


In other news, I've finally had a chance to watch today's matches.
LMQ vs Dignitas was such a fucking good game. Crumbzz is a god...
XWX didn't look like himself in this game.

But dat Aphro on the moo was beyond godlike.
Both those games were so fun to watch.

[icontrolyourworld]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

if you ever have lux in ofa have 1 person on your team go full tank, the shields make you invincible xD

[hi19hi19]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

I thought the troll OFA Lux strat was to build Hurricane so you can pop everyone's passive super fast :P

[icontrolyourworld]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

that might have been a good last item in my build xD

[stargroup100]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

I have like 90%+ win ratio in that mode playing with mina, and our mmrs in that mode are near the top, playing with the same people almost every game. we've been discussing strategies and stuff almost every game, so here are some super secret tryhard tips for anyone that wants them

generally speaking, you almost always want at least one tank on your team, even if the champion doesn't have cc. to have someone be able to absorb damage means you can apply pushing pressure, and this leads to taking out towers. the rare exceptions to this rule are certain champions like rumble, maybe fizz, etc

aura items are especially gold efficient and valuable. make sure your team communicates and buys them as soon as possible after very fundamental core items. avoid having everyone build the same items. even if champions have slightly different items/utility, that's way better than having two champions do exactly the same thing

for a lot of champions, exerting pressure in the very beginning of the game is essential, most notably ranged champions. if you don't push up hard, you'll be pushed into your tower, and you won't be able to regain control of the lane, and they'll slowly whittle your towers down

don't forget that players will build differently. just because 2 enemy champions are both draven doesn't mean that each one has the same priority to focus down. check item builds constantly with tab to see which players are the ones that pose the most threat and be aware of their role

for certain champions, planning out particular strategies can make or break a game:
Lucian - lucian has an extremely strong AP ratio on his W which makes it great for harassing, as well as an ult ratio. setting one (or even two) lucians on your team to ap gives you immense poke strength, utility that AD champions can't buy (ie frost queen), and adds variation to damage
Shaco - it's a very good idea to have 2+ people starting with targon's, giving gold to the team while quickly dispatching boxes. preferably, these should be the non-ap players, since the ap players probably want chalice for lane dominance and harass. in addition, you should have one tank and a mix of ap and ad. this particular team comp works best when the game is inevitably pushed to mid/late
Vayne - think about skill mechanics as well. if you're playing vayne, have everyone focus a single enemy target, as the silver bolts will stack from every player, nuking champions very quickly.
Singed - poison acts as a debuff, so it doesn't stack. if you run through the poison of 5 enemy singed players, you'll only take the highest damage one. this means that while early on offensive/sustain items are necessary for lane dominance, transitioning into mid/late game, you need to start building very tanky with auto-attack modifying items like lich bane or muramana. once the players on your team reach a certain threshold, you can start backdooring towers without little regard to the enemy team. they will literally be unable to kill you while you rip the structures down

and this is the kind of thinking you need when planning out the game. because of the nature of this mode, strategy makes a HUGE difference to your team's performance, far more so than on summoner's rift at the moment because people don't know how to play yet. proper planning can win you the game even if your team is not as mechanically strong

as for champ picks, generally speaking ranged champions are not as fun as melee champions. melee forces engagements, while ranged poke is VERY prone to snowball out of control

[Litodude]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

wat rank r u

[L.B.D.D]

Re: League of Legends [v2]

arguing About special Modes like Special people