ATTN: Scoring System Needed

[Patashu]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

Could you possibly divide the score up into two components, Accuracy Score and Comboing Score, which are displayed separately as well as totaled for a grand total? Because sometimes you're doing **** on one but awesome on the other

[TC_Halogen]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

passmark would be an interesting idea for stepmania but ultimately not a -whole- lot better than progressive scoring in that it arbitrarily favors one section of the file (end) in terms of scoring value. structural differences in files would lead to percentage comparisons lacking any referential significance, a presumed goal of percentage scoring in the first place. according to your model you also leave open the potential (intentional or otherwise) of acquiring over 100% total dp on a given song which doesn't make a lot of sense.

My mentioned idea isn't a scoring bonus at all as much as it is a performance bonus. Say that a song has a total score of 1,000,000 points and you get 890,000. You'd have an 89%, which would give you a B, but if you were to have done well on the file, you'd have enough of a % bonus to give you the A. The bonus is exclusive to percentage and not really machine score. I do see what you are saying about the system favoring the end of the file, but that's where you have to adjust the way the lifebar reacts to the way you score. Take IIDX again as an example. You could be doing relatively well, but the moment a hard section comes, your life percentage gets absolutely destroyed and it's not enough to really boost your percentage at all. That's why having a relatively high passmark rewards nicely, and also allows the player to build up a tiny bit of life to avoid taking a severe cut in DP%.

a hit-or-miss model in terms of accuracy scoring would be completely inefficient for this game as opposed to something like guitar hero (which includes what silvah refers to as 'slips' and other alternative score-alterers like star power bonuses) for the simple reason that it would result in absurd amounts of people obtaining indistinguishably close or identical scores on nearly every chart and the only charts that would end up being significant indicators of skill would be those generally resulting in massive cb discrepancy between players, a la death moon, rain etc; and no one wants that do they D:

It would be. That's why it shouldn't be considered.

edit: actually my criticisms on the passmark thing only -really- apply to the dp bonus element and not so much to the passmark itself which might be alright

Read above. Also, you did have something productive to say, it cleared up the passmark bonus issue.

EDIT: 4K posts \o/

[stargroup]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

NOW WE'RE GETTING SOMEWHERE

keep up this discussion this is great

gimme some time to digest all of this though

[Silvuh]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

I actually find them very annoying. On top of that, some people do feel advantages to tapping out keys that aren't there or they do it to keep themselves interested during boring parts of a song.

Oops, I wasn't aware of that. There should be some way to penalize mashing, though... other than with accuracy. Maybe if there are three or more key presses in the judgment window of a single note, there could be a penalty?
... And Patashu said something similar before I finished my post.

If you're not hitting the note accurately enough to feel the file but enough to warrant score, then you should at least be awarded SOMETHING.

Okay, yeah, thought so. I had an idea for accuracy, but I didn't mention it earlier, because I hadn't realized the difference between "how accurately you hit the note" and "being in time".
Still going with there only being a hit window here, say the standard window is 50 milliseconds. The max penalty for inaccurately hitting the note would be 50. You could have one of those exponential curves on the penalty-to-milliseconds graph. That should help the scoring lean towards being in time. And the max penalty would stay at 50 as the window tightens with the judge difficulty.
That's a generic number, though. I don't feel knowledgeable enough to calculate specific weightings between accuracy and other mistakes.
And then you can give ranges of milliseconds accuracy titles, if you like.
... and how high your ranking on the song would depend on how close your score is to 0. And there would be some equation related to how many notes are in the song and stuff to find the score ranges... if you want to add rankings.

P.S. I wonder if my initial instinct to make the score based on how bad you are says something about my personality.
Also, sorry that I'm being too simple... I'll just leave the more intricate thinking to you experts. I don't know all these other scoring systems or DP or that stuff...
EDIT:
Wow, I'm slow. Well... doesn't really look like my input is needed...

[abstractrevenge]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

Instead of 'boos' you could have IIDX's 'poors' which you get if you hit an extra NEAR notes on the chart that are ineligible (either because they're outside of the lowest scoring window or have already been hit)

Concerning the penalty bar: I actually think a REVERSE penalty bar would be better. From personal experience, when I'm bad at a rhythm game I get combo breakers at a consistent pace, not so much piled up in single areas. Therefore a pattern of consistently breaking combo is a sign of the song being very hard for you, where as accidental slips that rack up several CBs at once might just be accidental. So there actually is some worth in GH style combo scoring, where you're penalized for having widely distributed combo breakers but not for getting a large clump in a row by mistake nor overly rewarded for having an extensively long combo (maxes out at 4x)

This would be awesome. It would help the way a "Machine Score" would be determined on a song that has a constant difficulty. Say something like TOML.

But what happens on songs like Almost There? The song is hard for like 10 seconds and then you combo everything and just get a lot of points for easy bs, and the score would be influenced by the wrong part of the file. Much like a song with an easy ending makes your MS higher now.

How about simply abolishing letter grades altogether? It's perfectly feasible to just have the DP%.

The best example I can think of would be ITG; if you ever watch a video, there is never a C/S+/star/double/whatever in the title. "Mechanical Love - 99.14%" That has specific, and oftentimes, more meaningful information than "AA".

IMHO - figure out the scoring system period and ignore the need for letter grades. That's just me, though.

I totally agree with this, BUT I still like letter grades. It's just something to sort out your DP. I'd prefer it show both like ITG machines do.

However this is how I think things should be sorted. I don't like S that letter is very stupid for use with A-E. Instead I think we should implement a new lowest letter grade to make E-AAAA scoring and F be failing.

Range would be as follows

100=AAAA
98-99.9=AAA
95-97.9=AA
90-94.9=A
85-89.9=B
80-84.9=C
70-79=D
60-69=E
0-59=F

The accuracy base of the DP would be Marvelous instead of perfect obviously making AAA possible with enough Marvelous even with bad greats or CB's making the letter grade mean nothing more than putting a general reference to how well you did

Could you possibly divide the score up into two components, Accuracy Score and Comboing Score, which are displayed separately as well as totaled for a grand total? Because sometimes you're doing **** on one but awesome on the other

This might be cool for songs that are comboable, but at the sacrifice of MA because of stamina issues. However, it seems completely unnecessary though

[Patashu]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

How about, when 'stepmania' computes the note data for a chart, it assigns to each note a 'scoring multiplier' based on its proximity to other notes and how many other long holds are held when you hit it (and how many different notes you've had to have hit during those holds)? It might need a little extra fudge in having to look at how erratic and/or lopsided the patterns are as well (32nd rolls are dense but not hard)

Then you can have a 'voltage' score by looking at only the song's top 10% hardest rated notes or whatever

edit: and you could have a 'chaos' score by looking at how you did on the top 10% most erratically placed notes or w/e. this is a little harder but basically it would involve looking at whenever the distance between consecutive notes changed, and assigning this an aura based on how close the notes are and how irrational the ratio between this and the last duration was; for instance doubling or halving is worth almost nothing, but things like 2/3 or 3/2 have a bigger aura. it would then spread these auras out and add them together when they overlap, and the notes in the areas of highest aura are considered to be in the places of highest chaos. idk I think that'd be interesting

[abstractrevenge]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

How about, when 'stepmania' computes the note data for a chart, it assigns to each note a 'scoring multiplier' based on its proximity to other notes and how many other long holds are held when you hit it (and how many different notes you've had to have hit during those holds)? It might need a little extra fudge in having to look at how erratic and/or lopsided the patterns are as well (32nd rolls are dense but not hard)

Then you can have a 'voltage' score by looking at only the song's top 10% hardest rated notes or whatever

In all honesty it's a cool idea to make a score flashy, but I think all notes should be worth the same value.

Then from that value you get +X points where x=your judgement.

Where also if you miss it's -X points

this system would mean your Score is DIRECTLY related to your DP, not your combo OR where the note lands in a song

[Patashu]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

but as you just pointed out not all notes are created equal; most of almost there is easy ****, so why should those notes be worth as much to hit?

oh how about a GH style combo scorer but with a far far shorter limit; that is, 1.0x for a 0 combo, 1.1x for 1 combo...2.0x for 10 combo and up. that doesn't make bursts of cbs quite as bad as single cbs in varying places

[abstractrevenge]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

Okay well I don't like a combo multiplier idea, but with the idea of making things worth different values score wise patterns would have to be judged.

On a scale of say 1-10 the "Difficulty" of that pattern to hit judging then how many points on a scale of 1-10 said pattern is worth.

The easier the pattern, the less the point value.

The only problem with this system is how are these patterns judged? Some patterns are really annoying at low speed, but much easier at faster speeds (IE Rolls), and yet the opposite can be said for things like runningmen.

Basically there is no perfect way to have a score, but then again a score isn't needed. I think your score should be your DP and the letter grade is reflecting your score which is actually just the exact percentage out of all marvelous you got.



EDIT: also just a side note. I think perfect and marvelous should be switched. Because honestly how could you time something BETTER than perfect?

[Xiaounlimited]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

Osu! has a concept called Kiai Time that mappers can implement into their beatmaps. What it allows is the mapper to set a certain timeframe for Kiai Time to activate, up to a certain limit. During this timeframe, the score multiplier is increased (iirc it's 1.1 or 1.2) for the duration of it. Something similar could be done here so while notes would be of equal worth, steppers (charters, mappers, w/e) could add this into sections that would be worthy of it (i.e. Almost There's dumpstream) and therefore have a more profound effect on score.

[Patashu]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

how indeed....

[TC_Halogen]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

but as you just pointed out not all notes are created equal; most of almost there is easy ****, so why should those notes be worth as much to hit?

oh how about a GH style combo scorer but with a far far shorter limit; that is, 1.0x for a 0 combo, 1.1x for 1 combo...2.0x for 10 combo and up. that doesn't make bursts of cbs quite as bad as single cbs in varying places

You'd have to have quite a large scoring spread for grades because you'd have to remember that in order to get in the upper tiers, you'd have to be holding a constant string of notes compared to combo breaking just before the 2.0x boost.

I do agree though that if a person is struggling throughout the song though, the GH style multiplier is pretty nice of a thing--all you'd have to do is separate the DP%s a bit farther apart.

A thing about SM's machine scoring system that I'm sure everyone has noticed by now, every arrow hit is worth double the last one. So it already has some sort of multiplier, the only thing is that it doesn't reset.

With that being said, trying to incorporate GH style multipliers will probably not work because it's beyond SM's limitations scoring wise. You will not be able to define the maximum score on any given song unless you get 100% DP, and even then, it more than likely won't end up fitting the scoring system that SM has (difficulty x 10,000,000?).

The passmark idea is probably the easiest thing to control because the metrics of which the lifebar goes up and down can be changed, and even better, the grading percentage that you want can also be changed. The only thing about the passmark system that might be hard to do is to somehow incorporate the grading bonus in accordance to lifebar.

[abstractrevenge]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

Osu! has a concept called Kiai Time that mappers can implement into their beatmaps. What it allows is the mapper to set a certain timeframe for Kiai Time to activate, up to a certain limit. During this timeframe, the score multiplier is increased (iirc it's 1.1 or 1.2) for the duration of it. Something similar could be done here so while notes would be of equal worth, steppers (charters, mappers, w/e) could add this into sections that would be worthy of it (i.e. Almost There's dumpstream) and therefore have a more profound effect on score.

This is a really cool idea, but I still think your number score is completely obsolete and should be done away with. Scores should be compared on DP because the only thing other than your DP/MA/CBs that should matter is your combo.

It might be cool if there was a spot like this Kiai Time where it keeps track of your specific stats during the hard parts.

This would be kind of like guitar hero scoring breaking the files into sections so you can see how you did on the hard parts compared to easy parts. This would be a better way to earn bragging rights from the hard parts rather than your score which is just pointless numbers.

[Patashu]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

oh it's double? man I didn't know that haha

[stargroup]

Re: ATTN: Scoring System Needed

Osu! has a concept called Kiai Time that mappers can implement into their beatmaps. What it allows is the mapper to set a certain timeframe for Kiai Time to activate, up to a certain limit. During this timeframe, the score multiplier is increased (iirc it's 1.1 or 1.2) for the duration of it. Something similar could be done here so while notes would be of equal worth, steppers (charters, mappers, w/e) could add this into sections that would be worthy of it (i.e. Almost There's dumpstream) and therefore have a more profound effect on score.

while this is a nice concept keep in mind the amount of work that needs to be put into it in terms of scripting, and also notice that since users set this timeframe, you're putting the complicated, intricate scoring matters into the hands of the amateurs