About some StepMania changes

[Arch0wl]

Re: About some StepMania changes

yea and when did people stop playing with their feet

whats that shit about

Foot play stopped being interesting right around when JSB got an SDG on Legend of Max in 2004-2005 or so.

The reason for this is because if you watch the video, he minimizes his foot movements because it allows him to move more easily.

You might be watching this and saying "really? I see him moving quite a bit."

And that's kind of my point.

At the time, players were used to much greater ranges of movement than JSB had in that video. Compare it with, say, this video where the player is using his toes to hit everything. Everyone's reaction to JSB was "he's barely moving his feet," and now everyone's reaction is "he's moving his feet too much."

Since then, pad play has been about minimizing how much your feet actually move across the pad. You could map degree of foot movement over time, and I'm sure it would be a strong linear line downward. "Bracketing" is the extreme of this phenomenon. The players do this because ultimately, they're concerned with the arrows on the screen and not the movements of their body. To prioritize your bodily movements over your score is getting into freestyle territory, and no one wants to do that.

As a result though, pad play has become less interesting to watch. It's not exciting visually or athletically -- it's only exciting because we're realizing that it's possible to complete insane charts on pad, but you could have predicted this anyway: WFD, the competition for fastest drummers, has a foot category and the fastest in that category have been able to match the fastest in the hand category. When you're minimizing movement, it's only a matter of time before pad speed reaches WFD foot speed.

If pads had more distance between arrows such that you could only hit them with the balls of your feet, it would be much more interesting. That's sort of what doubles play is, but so few people play doubles because of how single-player it is, and because it takes up an entire machine.

Some people in the music game community used to wave around that they were doing something athletic, while people who played finger games weren't. Honestly, I find this mentality stupid. A lot of people on FFR are very much into fitness and the Stepmania community has always been much more into fitness/weightlifting than, say, the DDR community as a whole. I'm personally finishing a cut where I've lost over 40lbs, but this has nothing to do with DDR.

Having said all that, I'm much more interested in finger playing because of the many ways you can abstractly represent the music -- especially with larger numbers of keys.

[Oni-Paranoia]

Re: About some StepMania changes

holy-multi-quoting

Personally, I would disagree with what you said about mines. Gundam-Dude, the one that originally made the dot mines (and uses them), is one of the most prominent and creative steppers when it comes to mines. I wouldn't necessarily say that mines are there to distract you, rather they can be used to accent certain sounds that shouldn't be represented by notes. In fact, I'd say "shame on you" to anyone placing mines that don't accent something. (they don't have to go to a sound, either)

So like me, this is completely based on preference then. See the words in bold from the quote? Mines weren't added for just accenting something.
See VerTex from ITG1 for example. The chart itself is borderline 10-11 but because of the mines, it was rated a 12. Pure example of difficulty and non-accenting if I may say. Not saying you can't use mines for accenting sounds or something else or to spell out words and make designs. But making them smaller so they feel out the way when they clearly should be in the way seems like a bitch move.

Long post

I'm the complete opposite with X-Mod charts. Some songs are annoying to play and are tough to learn but I can't recall having to play a song more than 10 times just to get an FC which includes Face Is, Jai, Silikon etc... I guess that is preference though.

Same view on mirror for the most part. As for the mines, it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do (or originally intended for). You can't deal with mines probably because you avoid playing songs with tricky mine placements, such as what you stated. But again, spending hours upon hours playing songs without mines isn't going to make them any less of a bother. This is my point for people who dislike them.

Honestly, I don't feel like note skins make files "easier" to read universally. It's just a matter of personal preference. I use to play with Orbular, but now I play with Delta again. My opinion regarding mines coincide's with Detrimentalist and Etienne, so I won't elaborate. The only part of your post I would agree with is the use of mirror, and for the reasons you listed.

I'm not against arrows being shaped differently or changed entirely, it was just a point of which the game isn't StepMania, or at least that's the way I see it. Yes, changing something as little as that makes it a different game. See every other Bemani game that's all similar but with more or less buttons that are all shaped differently.

Long post

Valkyrie Dimension is meant to have an extremely unnecessary fast ending so for scoring purposes you're forced to either A) Change the speed mod at the very end before the speed change or B) Play on a slower speed mod. Although stupid, that's what the file offers alike some other files players have created. Not saying C-Mod is bad for those types of files to learn them or enjoy them, it just seems as if no one enjoys those files (like Jai) they way they were created. Again, preference.

As for mirror, players use it to make files easier and that's it. If the file was harder on mirror than without then obviously they would not use mirror. Just because some people are dominant with different hands, it does not leave an excuse for someone to turn the file in their favor and it's not discriminating against anybody. Besides, most files are usually equal and avoid using one-handed trills right? Be right back, going to use Random on Jackhammer Madness because jacks aren't my thing. For mines, see last sentence under the first quote. Same technically applies.

Long post

Wrong about gimmicks. Wrapped Around The Pole had a section which just looked as if your frame rate dropped but hitting the notes was as easy and simple as normal so gimmicks can be sight-readable. And mines aren't gimmicks really. I don't know if I read that wrong, but that's what it looks like. Also, see response above this one to Dossar about mines.

Also xmod is more about the experience of the file rather than scoring on it. If a person is playing a xmod file the first few times and needs memorization to just play through it, then there is no point in playing the file. (One of my files in my NDAD pad pack suffers from this, but it's just for passing and it actually fits the track)

No point in playing the file because some memorization is required? Again, VerTex and Valkyrie Dimension seem to be key things here. Ever notice that very rarely you come across files like this?

Very long post

This post probably makes the most points. Syncing songs using BPM changes and expecting someone to use C-Mod is different than using gimmicks and expecting the song to be played X-Mod. I do agree that C-Mods for that is understandable, even to me. Most skins are also color changes, not complete note changes and that's why I mentioned it. As for turning, which hand a trill is on is not irrelevant as a player may have more speed on one hand than the other and a song just may have a trill in an interesting spot, thus making mirror an easier alternative than trying to trill with said weaker hand.

So let me understand this, playing on mirror which makes patterns the opposite of what the chart creator designed somehow makes more sense? But a regular song doesn't? I feel as if someone should hand you a few files, tell you they were already mirrored in and saved and have you try scoring on them. It sounds as if mirroring a song just to be mirrored despite the pattern is a psychological thing.

Long post

And when bracketing was introduced to kill off the rest of the players.

Loaded Futurefile - Pad (2008)

Thank you to the non-trolls and sorry if I responded to anyone rudely.

[TwistedPhoenix]

Re: About some StepMania changes

I think this all just boils down to personal opinion. I like gimmicky files, others don't. I like mines, some people don't. I don't really like playing on Xmod (I prefer Mmod if I must use something other than Cmod), while others do. And for the grand majority of files, mirror doesn't really change much because the stepartist didn't intend for it to be played a certain way. There's not much about this that can be labeled as factual.

EDIT: Well after being in that notecharting workshop last night, I can say that I was rather wrong about the mirror part. Still, the rest of my argument stands.

[qqwref]

Re: About some StepMania changes

I'm not against arrows being shaped differently or changed entirely, it was just a point of which the game isn't StepMania, or at least that's the way I see it.

Stepmania has been designed to be customizable for a long time. They added noteskins (and themes, and metrics.ini, and...) specifically so you could change the look and feel - and they never required the arrows be arrow-shaped. Stepmania definitely wasn't intended to be defined by the default theme. In that way it is certainly different from officially released, un-customizable games like, as you said, the Bemani series.

As for mirror, players use it to make files easier and that's it. If the file was harder on mirror than without then obviously they would not use mirror. Just because some people are dominant with different hands, it does not leave an excuse for someone to turn the file in their favor and it's not discriminating against anybody. Besides, most files are usually equal and avoid using one-handed trills right?

Who said turning a file in your favor is bad? There's no difference between saying "there's no excuse for using mirror to make the file easier" and saying "there's no excuse for using speedmods greater than 1x to make the file easier". And remember, with spread, all mirror does is move every pattern to the same fingers on the opposite hand. It's not changing the way the patterns play like Right/Left/Shuffle would. I've seen the "LOL WHY NOT S.SHUFFLE" argument several times, it didn't make sense then, and it doesn't now.

It sounds as if mirroring a song just to be mirrored despite the pattern is a psychological thing.

Middie is a weird dude, don't think he's typical of modern players

[foxfire667]

Re: About some StepMania changes

I might be going into things someone else has said but I might as well put my two cents here as well.

C-Mod has been a staple in StepMania skill boosting for years, and aside from perhaps some of the pad community, I really didn't know people thought this was a negative thing anymore. X-mod is a very interesting concept, but people don't step files with the intent of always flooding them with such changes to make it potentially more visually appealing. Have you ever wondered why certain packs are called X-mod packs, or why banners and subtitles of certain files explicitly request to use x-mod? So the player knows that the file was prepared with the intent of having these types of gimmicks, and can play it that way. A typical keyboard file is NOT stepped with the notion that it will ever be played on x-mod anymore, and as such, would be fairly pointless to even play on x-mod to begin with. Files might be littered with small and abrasive bpm changes to match the song, and extremely low or high bpms for the same reasons, or just a static bpm throughout the entire song. StepMania changed over the years, and has sided towards using c-mods for increased control and scoring capabilities. This in turn has made files which are not designed for x-mods the norm.

X-mod is fun to screw around with for me, but I never consider scoring or accuracy when I do. At this point I feel like it's a separate category in a sense.


As for using mirror on SM, I personally never do, but I wouldn't penalize scores of players that do. I would imagine the only reason why people would switch to mirror is to account for major hand bias, or to shake off mental blocks on various sections (which it certainly does, and why I have used it numerous times on FFR to shake off a mental block for an AAA). The difficulty of the file stays constant, since the patterns are only flipped. Overall I wouldn't consider it anything more than that, but this is really more of a personal opinion than anything. There are a few grey areas in the world of potentially cheating in StepMania, in terms of an accepted score I would imagine.

My view on mines; I absolutely despise them, if it's a dodgeball type of file where it's intended to be a mine-song, then I find it an actual challenge and fun to play, that's my only exception, but if it's a song that has randomly-tossed mines into some places then that's when I start to get mad...

I have a similar view on mines, and the only real reason I keep them on in the first place is because I feel turning them off entirely is sort of a cheat. Mines that actually serve an artistic purpose to the file itself (ie: accenting, responding to the tone of certain sections of a file, representing notes in a build up or break section, etc) are typically worthwhile and add something to the file. Of course these types of mines don't usually have the intent on making the file much harder than it already is, and only are added for aesthetics. When step files rely on mines to make a file difficult, it is normally a terrible file to play in my opinion, and sucks all the fun out of it altogether. You can say all you want that it makes the file more challenging, but I want the file to be challenging because of the arrow density and patterns, not because someone went crazy in the SM editor and crapped mines everywhere. A step chart should not rely on intensive mines to make it extremely difficult (adding a little difficulty is fine if the song calls for it). If it does, then all that means is it has become devoid of enjoyment for me, and I never play it again. Also, this isn't because I'm terrible with mines, I just find if I'm spending more time avoiding mines than hitting arrows, then it pretty much always is boring or irritating depending on the intensity of random mines.

Changing the size or shape of the mines is similar to that of changing the size or shape of the arrows, in that it doesn't make the timing any more or less strict. It really is just more of a way to increase reading space, without compromising the ability to see the mines or disable them. You should be able to read step charts, and this is just a way to help you do that.

Longer post than I thought I was going to make.

[swordmasterz]

Re: About some StepMania changes

Cmod is in fact, mostly due to laziness probably, even if you don't want to hear that argument. Normalizing BPM changes and de-emphasizing the 'speed' interpretation of files is secondary to this. If you're playing you don't want to have to shift your xmod every time you play a different song, especially with the abysmal selection method that the Stepmania options menu provides ingame.

However, I also agree that xmods COULD be used in lieu of this. People could learn to switch back and everything would be fine and dandy after a while. However, the foundation of how we have learned to play has officially delved into the cmod world. Unless you called for major reform, people are not just suddenly going to switch over to xmod.

I also want to add that we see many xmod files these days use 'gimmicks' these days. Files that undergo 'regular' BPM changes are hardly regarded as xmod. But for a file to simply double and half its BPM doesn't make for a very entertaining BPM change imo. The vast majority of the files that are stepped don't have interesting speed changes. Feel free to correct me on this bit though, I could be wrong.

Concerning your bit about the graphical adjustments that are made, I simply revoice qqwref's statement. Stepmania, unlikely many other rhythm games, seems to possess a greater freedom in terms of adjusting how the gameplay appears. It's simply a part of the game at this point. Imo there's no real need to adjust part of the game. Having these modifications is no different from buying a mechanical keyboard in an effort to improve your skill somehow... just less costly \o/

Would you advocate the uniformity of keyboards just for Stepmania? Might as well sell the game packaged with a controller at that point. To be fair this point is a little extreme, but I hope you see what I'm trying to say here. Having the freedom to change these options means that people will inevitably use those rights to make their (reading) lives easier.

[Arch0wl]

Re: About some StepMania changes

Would you advocate the uniformity of keyboards just for Stepmania? Might as well sell the game packaged with a controller at that point.

This wasn't addressed to me, but yes. I would.

If Stepmania weren't initially a DDR sim, one of the best things it could've done would have been to partner with Logitech for discounts on K120 keyboards, endorsing it as the "official" keyboard of Stepmania.

[Oni-Paranoia]

Re: About some StepMania changes

So why isn't there a KB-SM theme out there with only Cmod available, removed modifiers that no one ever uses (except perspective, noteskin and turn mods unfortunately), and a rate mod on the options screen?

Yes, that's a serious question. No, it's not THAT hard to do. No, I'm not being a jackass but if my knowledge is outdated or flawed, then I'm going to question why players do things. Makes little sense to play SM and not want a better, more specific theme to your liking.

[FissionMailed1]

Re: About some StepMania changes

I've basically already done exactly that for myself on my modified version of SM5's ultralight theme.

[Tyson ultima]

Re: About some StepMania changes

So why isn't there a KB-SM theme out there with only Cmod available, removed modifiers that no one ever uses (except perspective, noteskin and turn mods unfortunately), and a rate mod on the options screen?

Yes, that's a serious question. No, it's not THAT hard to do. No, I'm not being a jackass but if my knowledge is outdated or flawed, then I'm going to question why players do things. Makes little sense to play SM and not want a better, more specific theme to your liking.

Actually this is Xoon 2. Xoon 2's biggest gripe with me was that it pretty much ONLY had Cmods and barely any xmods. (which is why I preferred glass)

edit: Also why aren't we using M-mods?

[FissionMailed1]

Re: About some StepMania changes

The problem with m-mods is that they don't account for average BPM. Suppose I am playing chart with an average BPM of 150. The chart has a speed up to 10,000 BPM as part of a gimmick. If I use an m-mod of speed 750, for example, the average BPM will actually sharply decrease. This is because it is based on the maximum BPM of the chart, not the average BPM. That's why x-mod is usually preferred.

[foxfire667]

Re: About some StepMania changes

So why isn't there a KB-SM theme out there with only Cmod available, removed modifiers that no one ever uses (except perspective, noteskin and turn mods unfortunately), and a rate mod on the options screen?

Probably because it really just doesn't matter that much. Aside from the occasional rate change I essentially never use my options screen, so it seems rather pointless so seek out a theme that removes the majority of the modifiers (or edit them out myself for that matter). I could really care less that there are a bunch of options I never really use, since it isn't like it takes an extended amount of time to find what I'm looking for, nor are the options extremely cluttered and difficult to navigate through. If that were the case, then sure I'd remove them (probably wouldn't seek out a theme to do it), but it really isn't that important. People typically get themes to change up the looks of their SM anyway, not to remove a few options.

Plus it seems sort of silly to go and get a theme because it removes options, instead of for the core reason why people change themes in the first place (because they think it makes SM actually look better). I could never see someone deciding to get an extremely well done theme, but then opting out of it because this "KB-SM" theme removes a few options instead. Also if you think then that perhaps every theme should start doing it instead of a single dedicated theme (or that themes either be [KB] or [PAD] for options or something), that is also rather silly because some people do mess around with other options, and do play other styles. Why single players out when you can spend less time working on the theme and include everyone?

[Oni-Paranoia]

Re: About some StepMania changes

Why we don't use m-mods...

Agreed.

Probably because it really just doesn't matter that much. Aside from the occasional rate change I essentially never use my options screen, so it seems rather pointless so seek out a theme that removes the majority of the modifiers (or edit them out myself for that matter). I could really care less that there are a bunch of options I never really use, since it isn't like it takes an extended amount of time to find what I'm looking for, nor are the options extremely cluttered and difficult to navigate through. If that were the case, then sure I'd remove them (probably wouldn't seek out a theme to do it), but it really isn't that important. People typically get themes to change up the looks of their SM anyway, not to remove a few options.

Plus it seems sort of silly to go and get a theme because it removes options, instead of for the core reason why people change themes in the first place (because they think it makes SM actually look better). I could never see someone deciding to get an extremely well done theme, but then opting out of it because this "KB-SM" theme removes a few options instead. Also if you think then that perhaps every theme should start doing it instead of a single dedicated theme (or that themes either be [KB] or [PAD] for options or something), that is also rather silly because some people do mess around with other options, and do play other styles. Why single players out when you can spend less time working on the theme and include everyone?

Out of all that you didn't state what a player looks for in a theme. I'm assuming players change themes for something different, a change in the game they play and colors or objects that suit them more personality wise or humorously. Does not change the fact that if someone did make a more strict KB-Style theme, others would have adopted it the cleaner more simpler look if it also fit what other likes or reasons the player found in the theme.

So if it's just for convenience, I still don't understand why it's not an option. But I guess I can say this with a lot of SM options that don't exist. It seems so simple to make an option (in the menu) to change the song menu from lets say, original to simple or the other way around like many of the options in SM.

If it was there, would you use it? And if that script existed, would other theme-creators take advantage of having another universal option in the menu?

[Choofers]

Re: About some StepMania changes

stepmania more like tapmania right

keybeat

[Jousway]

Re: About some StepMania changes

The problem with m-mods is that they don't account for average BPM.

guess I solved this with my amod system