About some StepMania changes

[Oni-Paranoia]

Everything here is debatable and this is a semi-serious thread.

So StepMania started out as a game that used arrows as notes that would flow along (some of the time) with music that allowed the notes to sometimes slow the speed of the notes down and/or hasten them.

Some of what I'm going to mention has really old arguments built-in from a few years ago. Now, most people stick with C-Mod that doesn't visually represent any possible gimmicks (including but not limited to speed changes and pauses), notes can be whatever we want them to be (it was comical before, but now you can make files easier to read (lol orbular)), we can change many other visual elements such as mines to be tiny dots so they aren't distracting which is the fucking point of them in a file 80% of the time (yes, referring to a video recently posted on the databse), and we can turn notes within 90 degree rotations usually making difficult patterns in a song easier (old argument is old). Okay so, some things that changed about the game over time was to make the game easier rather than just adjusting to the things that make it difficult. I never once heard someone say "Hey! Let's use mirror on this file because it's more fun that way."

So I'd love to hear some reasons as to why people change certain elements other than hearing "it's easier this way, too lazy to change speed mods every song, mines don't exist to me" etc...

Don't give me a "tl;dr" post, and this is not a rant but my opinion on what changes I believe had some odd effects on the game and newcomers who are already use to these being a standard.

[NeoMasterPie]

Re: About some StepMania changes

Personally, I would disagree with what you said about mines. Gundam-Dude, the one that originally made the dot mines (and uses them), is one of the most prominent and creative steppers when it comes to mines. I wouldn't necessarily say that mines are there to distract you, rather they can be used to accent certain sounds that shouldn't be represented by notes. In fact, I'd say "shame on you" to anyone placing mines that don't accent something. (they don't have to go to a sound, either)

[stargroup100]

Re: About some StepMania changes

wtf other people use dot mines other than me what is this since when

[NeoMasterPie]

Re: About some StepMania changes

I've been using them since 2009 get fuqed

[kommisar]

Re: About some StepMania changes

StepMania needs a new GUI because its current menu is outdated and over a decade old

[EtienneSM]

Re: About some StepMania changes

Alright, here are some brief opinions on what I think about some of the modifications that were made in Stepmania.

My view on C-mods: I think C-mods are completely fine to use besides in tournaments for pad and traditional songs, however, that's your choice, I prefer using C-mods because I have a piss-poor memorization so whenever I run into a file with speed changes and such, I won't remember when the gimmick or slowdown is, it's not that I can't read the chart at the BPM it is, it's the matter of when it slows down or speeds up.



My view on mirror: This is just my own opinion, I don't mind it at all when other people use it. However, I don't think it's really something fair to use if there's a file that relies on a certain hand a lot. I think people should just stick to the original file and play it how it is in terms of how the patterns and such are. The only time I used to use mirror was for FFR and I kind of regret doing that because I never really knew what the original chart looked like. In a nutshell, I really don't mind when other people use mirror at all, I just think it ruins the originality of the chart, that's pretty much it.

My view on mines; I absolutely despise them, if it's a dodgeball type of file where it's intended to be a mine-song, then I find it an actual challenge and fun to play, that's my only exception, but if it's a song that has randomly-tossed mines into some places then that's when I start to get mad, because whenever I see a jump with a mine, I'll end up hitting the mind instead of the actual arrow.

[FissionMailed1]

Re: About some StepMania changes

Honestly, I don't feel like note skins make files "easier" to read universally. It's just a matter of personal preference. I use to play with Orbular, but now I play with Delta again. My opinion regarding mines coincide's with Detrimentalist and Etienne, so I won't elaborate. The only part of your post I would agree with is the use of mirror, and for the reasons you listed.

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: About some StepMania changes

Some files have very forced gimmicks that are stupid (e.g. Valkyrie Dimension) and I can see why a CMOD would be used in that situation. Some files also weren't meant to be played on xmod (e.g. grind2 in midare megapack). But in terms of files that require a lot of memorization, that's when xmod just becomes annoying (and it's not even scoring either... just playing through the file itself). For instance, DDR's Chaos had a nice concept, but the stops make the next step start an 8th off from the song (which I am 99% sure was done on purpose, just like the 24th gap in Fascination Maxx) and then there isn't any way to tell when the stops exactly happen unless you know it beforehand.

So basically, for xmod the file should be somewhat intuitive when a person plays it the first few times. Otherwise, it just becomes BS memorization.

Mirror: Nobody should care about this being used. If someone is using mirror, go use it yourself and see how much easier the file is for you. If anything, mirror could make a file HARDER for some players, so this mirror crap can be hypocritical in those situations. However I accept mirror because it removes discrimination against players who are different from right to left with left to right patterns and one handed dominance.

Mines: I very rarely use mines. If I use them, they usually spell out some type of message or something. They shouldn't force difficulty in a file. Of course if the file is obviously intended as a file to dodge a lot of mines, that's a different case -- but many times mines make certain parts stupid to hit ESPECIALLY if the mines are mixed with holds and are something like a 32nd right before or after a note.

Rolls weren't mentioned here, but the same thing applies with mines: Putting a roll and having it end a 32nd interval right before the next note is obviously intended to mess up the player and get a boo on the next note, and this is a forced way of using it.

[TwistedPhoenix]

Re: About some StepMania changes

Well the way I see it, there comes a time when the difficulty of what your playing passes from being difficult in a fun way, to being difficult in an irritating way. So I think the majority of the changes were to allow people to tackle more challenging files while still retaining the fun factor that will keep them playing.

[MinaciousGrace]

Re: About some StepMania changes

yea and when did people stop playing with their feet

whats that shit about

[arcnmx]

Re: About some StepMania changes

Personally, I just see gimmicks as pointless additions that don't count as real play. They can be fun or challenging, but tend to they detract from the core gameplay and are better just used as handicaps / mods you play with when bored.

Speed changes are fine, but they're just more gimmicks if they aren't used to represent actual tempo changes. Stops, speed changes, anything that requires memorization or isn't readable on a sightread is just a gimmick. I guess I feel like anything that affects how you read charts shouldn't matter (and anything that makes it easier should be fine). C-mods may make reading easier but I don't have an issue with that.

Mines, I personally hate simply because I fail to see the point of them. Maybe they make more sense when you're playing on a pad and force you to move your feet faster? If they're being used to give something a staccato feel miniholds are probably the better way to go. If they're being used to make reading more difficult, well, see my opinion on speed changes for that.

As for mirror, yes it's a tool used to make a chart easier but its purpose is to level the playing field. Using it doesn't make a file less heavy on one hand, it simply changes which hand it is more heavy on. If you're playing in a competitive context a player shouldn't have an advantage on a file simply they're right or left-handed. Rotation/shifting on the other hand does actually change the structure of the original chart. Of course, this is just my opinion from a spread perspective >.>

tl;dr anything that interferes with reading should be optional / not counted from a competitive/scoring standpoint in my opinion. Anything that makes it more comfortable for someone is fine.

[qqwref]

Re: About some StepMania changes

I feel like, with some of these things, people simply have different preferences. Yeah, one person might be using orbular because it's "easier" to MA for them than arrows, but to another person maybe arrows are way easier. Why shouldn't everyone have the chance to play the file the best way they can? I have a feeling that most of the people who think we should have always been forced to use arrows are people who really do prefer playing with them. If the original Stepmania build had had circles instead you'd have people advancing the same argument in the other direction. Freedom > tradition.

I'd say the same thing for mirror, too - if a file is very biased towards one hand, why should only the people who are better with that hand have the opportunity to score well on it? People usually complain about left-hand-biased files being played on mirror, but I've seen right-hand-biased files being played on mirror too, by people who really are better on the left. It's just better for everyone if both modes are allowed.

And as for mines, IMO that's an issue of people distilling it down to the core essence. A mine is really just about not hitting the note. We don't need to make things harder to read, because what's the point? If it's hard enough you just end up making it so you have to memorize certain parts of the file to score well on it, and being forced to play a chart over and over until you memorize it isn't fun for most people. The dot mines may seem too "easy" but they are just as hard to physically hit, and they let you add a lot more to a file (artistically) than the huge circular ones did.

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: About some StepMania changes

Also xmod is more about the experience of the file rather than scoring on it. If a person is playing a xmod file the first few times and needs memorization to just play through it, then there is no point in playing the file. (One of my files in my NDAD pad pack suffers from this, but it's just for passing and it actually fits the track)

[AlexDest]

Re: About some StepMania changes

yea and when did people stop playing with their feet

whats that shit about

stepmania more like tapmania right

[Xx{Midnight}xX]

Re: About some StepMania changes

Now, most people stick with C-Mod that doesn't visually represent any possible gimmicks (including but not limited to speed changes and pauses), notes can be whatever we want them to be (it was comical before, but now you can make files easier to read (lol orbular)),

Let me just say that overall, I think your ideology is just outdated and flawed outright. But regardless of that:

Yeah the addition of C-Mod allowed a more reliable experience.

Take this screen shot from an 18 second loop remix of Equative Captives (N's Theme) a chart I made recently and have uploaded to the Team Blaze offline FFR engine.



Granted, I have in fact attempted (and passed) this without a C-Mod. But that doesn't mean my intentions when syncing it intended it to play this way. C-Mod allows charts like this to played in a more intended and precise manner.

But C-Mod also opened up to Xmod, Where you intend a player to play a chart with a specific set of either reading gimmicks from visual effects, which I feel that 2.0 ect is a lot more viable.

It also allowed arrow gimmicks such as GD's Prayer chart. It evolved the stepping scene and allowed a new wave of new charts to come in. I'm not particularly fond of many of them, but they're new and where revolutionary to the current stepping meta.

Also as for orbular, skins where always available. That's nothing new, and only makes the game easier to read pending the player. I can't read orbular for shit. Or Beatmania.

we can change many other visual elements such as mines to be tiny dots so they aren't distracting which is the fucking point of them in a file 80% of the time (yes, referring to a video recently posted on the databse), and we can turn notes within 90 degree rotations usually making difficult patterns in a song easier (old argument is old). Okay so, some things that changed about the game over time was to make the game easier rather than just adjusting to the things that make it difficult. I never once heard someone say "Hey! Let's use mirror on this file because it's more fun that way."

I am not fond of the mine changing myself. But it doesn't completely cloak them and is still a visual distraction. It's kind of cheating within reasonable standards. But I play with Mines turned off completely most of the time anyways. But someone else mentioned mines way better than I can so I'm not gonna say anymore.

And again this old mirror argument. You aren't changing the difficulty of the chart. The chart is still as difficult as intended. A one handed trill, is a one handed trill. The hand it's on is irrelevant overall. However, using right or left shuffle or super shuffle is more cheating because they change the layout completely, and the community as a general statement recognizes that and thus it's not a mod that's used often, if at all.

I use mirror on most everything I play on FFR. It doesn't make as much sense visually, but subconsciously my brain clicks to mirrored patterns better most of the time. Take Twister from Scintill as an example. I can perfectly execute the bass grove in about the middle of the chart on mirror, but without it, my brain is like "wait you want me to do what?" It's the same pattern either way, just I respond better to it backwards. I also will add Dizzy for fun (though I used to use it for PA purposes as they used to align on the amazing frame.) I use a C-Mod because everything below 120BPM needs a 3-4x speed mod and if it spikes above that at all, it can't be played for me. Before C-Mod was shown to me, I used to wish for the ability to have a constant readable pace. C-Mod gave me that. It's not even that I can't read lower speeds, just my brain is subconsciously trained to use really fast ones.

The TLDR of my entire post is that I think you're just someone who thinks very one tracked. You're not wrong to a degree with your points, but you just seem to not welcome the revolutions caused by these changes. If the community as a whole has accepted a reasonable change that allows a new dynamic, is it such a bad thing?

Post probably doesn't make that much sense but w/e.