A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

[RenegadeLucien]

Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

Alright. Well then.

I'm of the opinion that Otaku Heavy/Scarhand Standard actually NEED to be lowered, especially if they're so closely tied to the divisional system. Right now, D3 = 46, but Heavy is 50. Likewise, D4 is 55, but S[S] is 58. No other division have gaps of this size--D5 and D6 have gaps of 1, and D7 has a gap of 2 [but that is being changed by the new system.]

It seems quite weird to me that you can be well into D3/D4 without getting their respective token.

So either the divisional cutoffs need to go up or the tokens need to go down, and since we're talking about shifting the tokens, I'd go for the latter.

As for the 13th title, I can't say anything about this. I'm nowhere even close to good enough to be able to tell a 92 from a 93, or even an 89 from a 92.

[MinaciousGrace]

Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

As for the 13th title, I can't say anything about this. I'm nowhere even close to good enough to be able to tell a 92 from a 93, or even an 89 from a 92.

dude you made my day you have no idea

[rushyrulz]

Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

Since we are discussing tokens as well, I feel like the requirements for Here We Go should be changed a bit. With the increase of harder files and the introduction of the raw score system, this token went from difficult but fair to almost impossible.

Tokens in general could use a rework, but that's a discussion for another thread.

[Zapmeister]

Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

Back in the day it was beginner, intermediate, advanced...plain and simple. The qualifications for making it into these groups I feel should change over time, rather than the number of groups.

On the topic of difficulties however, in other disciplines the "rating" aspect varies across the board. Some sports like competitive diving maintain a strict difficulty rating system that, as far as numbers go does not change; however what constitutes a difficulty of 4.1 from year to year may change. I'm noticing that you will rarely see the scale itself get larger, rather the difficulty of a certain element may change its rating within the established scale.

YAY PURPLE IS COOL

your example can't be representative of all sports or rating systems. grade inflation happens, and individual sports or whatever make their own judgements as to how to deal with this. let's take the example of British rock climbing grades, which is an extreme case the other way, but is my favourite example to discuss when the topic of grade inflation gets mentioned.

back in the early 20th century, when the sport of outdoor rock climbing (with ropes, not just bouldering) was first introduced over here, British rock climbing grades went: Easy, Moderate, Difficult. fair enough, right? just like when you said ffr divisions were beginner, intermediate and difficult. but then people got better and better, along with climbing equipment getting better as well. and by the era of the end of world war 2, the grade system was: Easy, Moderate, Difficult, Very Difficult, Hard Very Difficult, Severe, Hard Severe, Very Severe, Hard Very Severe, eXtremely Severe, Exceptionally Severe.

in the '70s, people started thinking ok this adjectival system is getting ridiculous and we need a better way of adding levels to the top of the scale. so they renamed the last 2 levels to Extreme(ly severe) 1 and Extreme 2. i think you can tell where this is going. at the moment, the highest difficulty level is Extreme 11. this site gives more details about the british system

it's not just britain that does this, although i picked the best example because the adjectives are funny and they make it sound like they really didn't know what they were doing. take a look at other countries' grading systems and you can see how every scale is deliberately left open-ended to make more room at the top.

grade inflation is definitely a thing that exists everywhere where people don't suspect. as another example, the introduction of the A* grade at british gcse and a-level exams comes to mind, since it was much easier to introduce new grades than redefine old ones.

this post has no relevance at all to ffr difficulties but i felt like typing it anyway because i thought some context would be interesting

[Dynam0]

Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

YAY PURPLE IS COOL

your example can't be representative of all sports or rating systems. grade inflation happens, and individual sports or whatever make their own judgements as to how to deal with this. let's take the example of British rock climbing grades, which is an extreme case the other way, but is my favourite example to discuss when the topic of grade inflation gets mentioned.

back in the early 20th century, when the sport of outdoor rock climbing (with ropes, not just bouldering) was first introduced over here, British rock climbing grades went: Easy, Moderate, Difficult. fair enough, right? just like when you said ffr divisions were beginner, intermediate and difficult. but then people got better and better, along with climbing equipment getting better as well. and by the era of the end of world war 2, the grade system was: Easy, Moderate, Difficult, Very Difficult, Hard Very Difficult, Severe, Hard Severe, Very Severe, Hard Very Severe, eXtremely Severe, Exceptionally Severe.

in the '70s, people started thinking ok this adjectival system is getting ridiculous and we need a better way of adding levels to the top of the scale. so they renamed the last 2 levels to Extreme(ly severe) 1 and Extreme 2. i think you can tell where this is going. at the moment, the highest difficulty level is Extreme 11. this site gives more details about the british system

it's not just britain that does this, although i picked the best example because the adjectives are funny and they make it sound like they really didn't know what they were doing. take a look at other countries' grading systems and you can see how every scale is deliberately left open-ended to make more room at the top.

grade inflation is definitely a thing that exists everywhere where people don't suspect. as another example, the introduction of the A* grade at british gcse and a-level exams comes to mind, since it was much easier to introduce new grades than redefine old ones.

this post has no relevance at all to ffr difficulties but i felt like typing it anyway because i thought some context would be interesting

Well, it somewhat does have some relevance and I think this sort of approach is much more easy to adapt when the sample size of elements you're dealing with is quite large. For instance in diving, gymnastics, acrobatics etc. the number of distinct maneuvers you can choose from is much more limited than the complex variation in say climbing routes or in our case note charts. It's easier to keep the rating on 1000's of carefully rated songs and up the ceiling than to overhaul everything which is why for us I think truncating at 120 is good. If the need calls for >120 then I'm sure we can add to it no??

[xxbidiao]

Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

My personal thinking is that there is not much gap between 80-85 but for 86-90 it's quite one. However, currently (in-game) difficulties are not that consistent (There are lots of "easy" 85s comparing to a few "extremely-hard" 80s.) So we may need something like a "80 standard, 85 standard and 90 standard" to further discuss this.

[YoshL]

Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

difficulties are already being reworked

[Dinglesberry]

Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

To add more only somewhat relevant junk:

Has anyone noticed that songs on the edge (e.g 50s, 60s, 70s) are harder than the level above? Like I find 71s easier than 70s...

Maybe I'm bad tho

[rayword45]

Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

A 99-point, soon to be 120-point system is definitely gone have a few errors made.

Right now I still think the 76-80 range is worst, though 64-67 can be pretty dumb.

[Kawaii025]

Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

It seems quite weird to me that you can be well into D3/D4 without getting their respective token.

The struggle is real.

As for the OP, I just wanna touch on the lower-ended portion -
I'm for the difficulty shift downwards on unlocking Speedvibe [Heavy] & Scarhand [Standard]. As stated before, it makes sense to have the token unlock at the lower-end of the division cutoff and not in the middle. That'll at least give players something to aim for once they reach (or even prior to reaching) that plateau.

Mentally speaking from personal experience, even though I'm Lv. 58, I don't feel like I'm really a D4 player. That's mainly due to me not having St. Scarhand. Even if the changes are implemented, I still won't have the token... (that's another story for another day.) I think that knowing that you have the skills and capabilities of getting a AAA to unlock a 'division determining' file will help with your overall confidence.

/endrambling

[rayword45]

Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

I don't have the argument points to make a thread, but (opinions of course)

1. There is no way that OppIrish is harder than You're Gonna Love My Nuts
2. There is no way that OppIrish is the same difficulty as Stress Free Style
3. There is NO GODDAMN WAY that Powerflux is somehow the same difficulty as Metro

[_Zenith_]

Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

I don't have the argument points to make a thread, but (opinions of course)

1. There is no way that OppIrish is harder than You're Gonna Love My Nuts
2. There is no way that OppIrish is the same difficulty as Stress Free Style
3. There is NO GODDAMN WAY that Powerflux is somehow the same difficulty as Metro

Heh (ok)

[Dinglesberry]

Re: A Few Points Concerning Difficulties

Imo you guys should change the ranges for certain divisions.

I personally feel like D5 is too large (lol cause im in it), like when I was in D3 or D4 I could see my progress... D5 -> D6 is like a freakin mountain to climb, like damn better get me ice pick and snow shoes ready boys lets gooo (don't get me wrong D6 -> D7 will be like climbing up from the bottom of marinas trench, can't wait ;D)

I think you all over estimate how "this entire community is high level players".. like yeah, maybe the ones active on the forums are...

However, if you are a nerd like me and you like to parse http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/arc/recent.php and collect data on it, you'd notice that a LARGE number of the players that play are actually lower division, like a ton ton ton of people - you'd actually be surprised at how many people play. (Velocity if you read this PLEASE don't hide the results of the recent games page ;_; bro I love you <3)

Don't wanna release any data until I actually have a decent/accurate amount, but it generally takes approx 5-10 minutes for the entire recent games page to reload with new games

In terms of unique players I'd argue that FFR has at least 2000+ daily players, which is solid.

EDIT: Shit this is about song difficulties, not tiers... i figured FGO etc was tied to div tho