D7 Should be split into two different groups

[Hakulyte]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

I still don't get why it's not one division. Divisions should only be a guideline of how you progress. Using this in a competitive environment doesn't make sense. It would also kill the terrible incencitive to underperform voluntary which has been pretty much the bane of nearly every Officials so far. The tournament should be about how people surpass themselves, not about who hides his skills the best and get away with it (speaking for D1-D6). D7 is actually the only division that's been giving an accurate view of where people really were so far. The only issue would be that song selection, prizes and everything would work differently if that was the case. The upside would be that we no longer would need to do placements.

[Poison-]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

D12

[Ksl33zy24]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

been in d2 since forever, um, don't care about the other divisions

[xXOpkillerXx]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

Who's in charge of the tournament setup ?

[XelNya]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

To everyone who is asking about bracket style let me tell you why this is a bad idea.

1. On the scale of the FFR tourney the bracket style doesn't work. Imagine in the free for all a 900 or so way bracket.
2. It won't be interesting. It'll still be one song per division of people. The only balance at this point becomes the divisions so you'd have more than one bracket. Also account for the amount of charts it would take otherwise. It's unreasonable.
3. Free for all bracket? It's just simply not fair. Dossar's gonna rape that shit and some D1 noob can make it to like top 50 if they're lucky enough. That's just stupid. It's imbalanced and not fun to watch. Your victory in the first three rounds as a D5 player means nothing if it was all D1 level opponents.
4. Only place a bracket might work is D7 due to the low player count and the diversity of the players.
5. If you're all really so keen on a bracket:

Hold a preliminary which determines the top 16. Then use a bracket, but oh wait this still doesn't solve the problem.

Tldr: Brackets won't help. Free for all doesn't help. I wouldn't say FFR is complacent with divisions. Sadly I think it's the only way of a balanced and fair competition given the game.

And yes I am pretty much saying I think a bracket is just stupid mostly to the scale. I think there's a way to balance the divisions better. It might involve bringing it to 8 - 10 but that's still going to end up better than a bracket.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

To everyone who is asking about bracket style let me tell you why this is a bad idea.

1. On the scale of the FFR tourney the bracket style doesn't work. Imagine in the free for all a 900 or so way bracket.
2. It won't be interesting. It'll still be one song per division of people. The only balance at this point becomes the divisions so you'd have more than one bracket. Also account for the amount of charts it would take otherwise. It's unreasonable.

very closed minded thoughts, in my opinion.

http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...postcount=1235

Bracket style would work absolutely perfectly if you completely deviate from two things: a.) that FFR has to have one song per round and b.) that it cannot be done live. Unfortunately, the most conducive environment for this is highly unstable and works terribly for some people.

If you were to run a bracket style tournament effectively, you'd do it live with seeding starting at a certain difficulty level, and ordering them based off of the performance. If there are AAA ties, continue to seed with higher level charts until everyone has a specific seed. Then, do NCAA-style seeding (1 v n where n = number of players; 2 v. n-1, 3 v. n-2, etc). In addition to this, if we wanted to preserve more of the competition, we could split brackets into quadrants taking seed 1 and putting them as seed 1 in bracket A, seed 2 as S1 in bracket B, seed 3 as S1 in bracket C, etc. This works well in a situation where play is live, because error may very well put an undeserving seed 1 into that position where seeds 2 or 3 could well be the better players.

Also with this removes the necessity for unique charts; there will be so many people playing to specific styles that you wouldn't ever need to worry about having different material for playing, because the tournament would ideally be live and error is much more likely to happen in a live run as opposed to a time-frame of x days where you can play over and over again until you improve.

3. Free for all bracket? It's just simply not fair. Dossar's gonna rape that shit and some D1 noob can make it to like top 50 if they're lucky enough. That's just stupid. It's imbalanced and not fun to watch. Your victory in the first three rounds as a D5 player means nothing if it was all D1 level opponents.

not sure how FFA is possible in this situation. A typical tournament with no splits/flights would be somewhat effective as well in terms of divisional ordering, because ideally the song difficulty would continue to increase and you could cut n% of the bracket until x players, and then do even cuts until the winner.

4. Only place a bracket might work is D7 due to the low player count and the diversity of the players.

read above

5. If you're all really so keen on a bracket:

Hold a preliminary which determines the top 16. Then use a bracket, but oh wait this still doesn't solve the problem.

read above; my solution solves this too

Tldr: Brackets won't help. Free for all doesn't help. I wouldn't say FFR is complacent with divisions. Sadly I think it's the only way of a balanced and fair competition given the game.

And yes I am pretty much saying I think a bracket is just stupid mostly to the scale. I think there's a way to balance the divisions better. It might involve bringing it to 8 - 10 but that's still going to end up better than a bracket.

adding divisions is going to make things more convoluted in the future.

(edit: i've run quite a few tournaments outside of FFR if you guys couldn't tell, haha)

[Hakulyte]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

What are the counter-arguments to one division?

[Funnygurl555]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

I personally think a divisional system is a good idea. Yeah the purpose of an FFR tournament may not be to find the best player but instead the best players within specific subsets, but it promote competition and activity in the community. I get that there's issues with people cheating to have a chance to win or place farther in the tournament, but the amount of honest players far surpasses the amount who decides to cheat.

I at least find divisional tournaments to be fun. I like competition, and these types of tournaments promote competing against people who are around my skill-level. It feels like really hyped up divisional rivalry threads if you think about it.

/tried

EDIT: As for # of divisions and stuff, I really don't know (or care that much to be honest). But having one division... erm

[Garquillex]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

can the elimination part be changed to have the "eliminated" people enter a "soft elimination" or "loser's bracket" where they compete for total score against other eliminated people

half the players can't play for more than 1 round and that's kind of a bummer

[SK8R43]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

(also: don't pull the "you're only saying this because you're D7" argument, because I've had to play in ITG tournaments for years and put up with placing horribly for years before actually doing anywhere near decent, as well as finding my niche for scripted mod reading)



thank you; this is literally 100% how I feel, but I couldn't ever say something like that myself.

Dont get why you are targeting me, i was simply stating that D7 doesnt need it anymore than any other division. They are in that division because they are all around very good at this game, someone could be in low D5 for just getting a few great scores where as high D5 could have ALOT more skill so all in all its going to happen in all divisions and imo i dont think changing one will do anything. Its not perfect and never will be. lol

[TC_Halogen]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

The biggest counter argument I can see:

- lower/newer players get the shaft early

Resolution: with any NCAA-style bracket, D1 players would get some enjoyment with a triple-elimination structure tournament. D1 players likely would end up against D7 players in the top bracket. Upon losing, they would play against the loser of the adjacent D7 player, making it D1 vs. D1 player. This would occur for all situations where a D1 player might be against D7 and D2 might be against D6; etc. Eventually, you will have D1 players converging with upper divisions. Those same D1 players have the chance to yet again face D1 players in the lowest bracket upon another loss.

At the minimum, a player in this tournament structure would, assuming that there are three songs per given bracket match, play a minimum of 6 songs (best of 3 where the player gets two-and-out'd into lower brackets and elimination).

[TC_Halogen]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

also

Dont get why you are targeting me, i was simply stating that D7 doesnt need it anymore than any other division. They are in that division because they are all around very good at this game, someone could be in low D5 for just getting a few great scores where as high D5 could have ALOT more skill so all in all its going to happen in all divisions and imo i dont think changing one will do anything. Its not perfect and never will be. lol

what

how does that correlate to what you quoted me saying at all? I was saying that there's no necessity to have divisions and divisional skill isn't an appropriate reason compared to other games...

[SK8R43]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

I dont know, just saw that you quoted me, guess i just got confused lol

[TC_Halogen]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

It was just preemptive action; I've been accused of having certain competitive opinions in the past because I was a "high-tier" player, so I just put that front up immediately to prevent it from being used as a counteraction.

[choof]

Re: D7 Should be split into two different groups

i'm a low tier player (krazykitsune took my spot in d7) and i'm all for smashing keys