Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

[Bawks Squawk]

I'm not kidding right now. All political differences aside, I highly encourage everyone - left and right, liberal and conservative to really check out this video and let me know what you think of it.


Basically, the video is a manifesto to the protesters' demands claiming that, in short, we're all (both left and right) victims of state corruption and that corporations are merely beneficiaries of a completely corrupted system - no more than a fly being a beneficiary of a lion's leftovers...


Here's the link to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTx6t3FUSkM

The video is about 30 minutes long, but I promise, you will not be bored at all. If you can't watch it now, save the link and watch it when you have time and be sure to return to this question with your response to the video.

Before the video, a majority of my blame and anger, I feel, was misdirected towards corporations and their executives - I was upset with the never-ending revolving door we see between Wall Street and Washington D.C. as well as the aggressive amounts of lobbying that takes place in Washington... but this video has really reshaped my feelings and views on who's REALLY to blame for economic inequalities in this country (and around the world) suffering, misery and so on.


Please try to stay on topic in this thread and I'd be glad to hear your thoughts on the matter.

[TheSaxRunner05]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

Ok, based on what I've heard, let's abolish the government. We don't need cops or a military, the free market will sell you these protection for their price. The free market isn't perfect either. They are not free of blame because 'they dont have guns.'

Our system is set up on a system of checks and balances. At least our elected officials can be booted out of office, and *theoretically* the government should only be laying the rules to level the playing field for equal opportunity and workers rights. While I agree that the government is taking way too large of a role in the private sector, he lets the free market entirely off the hook.

Yes, the lower level workers and the corporate CEO's both gain benefit from each other's work, but the disparity between how much they earn is too vast. Does anyone really deserve a billion dollars? I can become the best teacher in the United States and not make a six figure salary, where as a decent businessmen can easily make six figures, and good ones make seven. Only those in charge of businesses or trading on wall street make large amounts of money.

This is why it's a "Occupy Wall Street" movement and not "occupy your local mall to protest commercialism" movement. It is to protest a system where only 1% of the people control a majority of the wealth in the nation, a group of people wanting their cut of the loot and only given table scraps.

The state is part of the problem, but corporations have a large influence over the government because the taxes on their large incomes is the lifeblood of the government's power. Without taxes, the government could not operate. The problem with the system is that corporations and government do what is good for each other, and not the 99% of the rest of us.

[Choofers]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

"help I'm entitled to free stuff"

[TheSaxRunner05]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

"help I'm entitled to free stuff"

The anarchist nor I made no mention of entitlement. Note I said the worker's deserve a better share from the companies, not people without jobs.

[emulord]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

Yeah for sure. Check out xkcd.com/980/huge/

[Cavernio]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

I can't watch that video in it's entirety, I made it through 4 minutes and if I watch more of it I might break my laptop in anger...I only made it through this far because I was ready to be pleasantly surprised that the shark in the metaphor was greed and we were all going to get a morality lesson. But I guess the shark is government.

If government bows to money, of course it's going to be corrupt. Money is what gives power in a free market, money is the corrupting factor, and that fact alone is why I don't like capitalism. If it really is a free market, then people are also free to work against it via government or other means. People do everything and anything for money to the point of subjugating entire populations to killing. What is the corrupting power here? What drives individuals and therefore corporation to do such things? Money.

FFs, people didn't start protesting because people were getting arrested unfairly, why is he arguing that at all? This guy is the propaganda he warns about. He's probably rich.

To be against the corrupting influence of money does NOT mean I'm against hard work or means I want things for free. Seriously now.

As a consumer, the free market dictates that 'I'm free' to not partake in any corrupt business. But I'm not. Not if I want to consume pretty much anything that I don't produce myself. Here's an example: Let's say I want coffee, my best bet is to buy fair trade. But even then the designation fair trade only mean 30% of the coffee is fair trade, or I'm paying the shipper or marketer more not the producer. There's so much information out there about it that I honestly have no ****ing clue what's right or wrong when I buy coffee anymore. And I can't grow my own coffee I live in a climate where it just doesn't grow. So I guess I just can't have coffee if I want to feel good about myself.
Let's do another example, but one that is for a product that I cannot live without, instead of something like coffee that is not a necessity. Clothing. Firstly, there's not a huge movement towards fairly traded clothing anymore, (and even 15 years ago when there was, it was largely about preventing unethical workplace practices in the states and canada, not about treating workers in other countries better), so I can't even get as well-informed about that. Even if I only chose to wear clothing made from recylced pop bottles where all the processing happens somwhere in Canada or the States, and so therefore I know the workers are being paid at least minimum wage. (Which is still too low for fairness as far as I'm concerned.) But then I have to ask, where are the pop bottles manufactured? And this is all an aside to the fact that the vast majority of fabrics are made overseas where I assume most of the working conditions are subpar to the standards that I have.

These examples just go to show the reality of being a consumer in a 1st world country; unless I choose to go and live in a commune, (specifically one that follows my own morals), I don't have much of a say in anything that I buy or use. I am an uninformed consumer who doesn't even have the power to say no to the clothes I wear even though I may find their existence morally upsetting, and so whatever modicum of power I'm supposed to have in a free market is even more non-existent. And large manufacturing companies know this and take advantage of it. And individuals like the man in the video, who mix up their political ideals with basic humaneness, tell themselves 'I'm not doing anything wrong by not paying my workers much money, I'm just following the standards,' and 'Hey, it's a free market. People wouldn't work for me if I weren't giving them something that they want.' And so while yes, the whole capitalist system and ideals of a free market is better than slavery, it's nowhere good enough. And regular people like you and me can't do shit about it unless we make our own corporations that produce products that are more expensive than the ethically questionable already existing ones, and then they have to become popular and successful. And that would be a grand feat! Hell, my local strawberry farmers can't even sell their berries because no one wants to pay 4$ a quart for them....and that's while they're paying their pickers substantially less than minimum wage. (And again I will point out that as consumers, we can choose to buy the local berries and pay more for it, but you still have to know they exist in the first place and go out of your way to get them. The 'local' strawberries in my grocery store usually come from Nova Scotia, not 20min away in the local strawberry field.)
In order for ME to have an influence in the market while under a Free Market, I have basically have to be a super-human, the odds would be stacked against me so much: as they are against any new businesses, especially ones whose products would be more expensive.

Wouldn't it be nice if the standard of wages and living were such that I didn't have to worry and do hours of research in order for me to get ethical products? Wouldn't it be nice if there were better global laws and legislation in place to make everything more fair?

I'm so ****ing sick of people telling me that trying to be a moral person is somehow wrong because it goes against a free market ideal because the Government forces people to do things. Forcing people to be more humanitarian, oh noes!

/end rant

*edit
Oh, and I didn't include the fact that if I do not actively support 3rd world development through buying products involving people from poor countries, I could easily be hurting them by stunting their growth. This is especially true if they are being treated and being paid well and I just clump them in with other products. It's impossible for me to match my morals without something larger than me, like government, that can give me some assurance that I buy products from companies that at the very least meet basic human rights.

[irionman]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

Regardless of your political stance, the occupy movement is pathetic. It's a bunch of whiny teens and hippies trying to bash the government. Seriously, the wall street thing had to have been one of the biggest misinformed movement in the history of the U.S. I wonder if they realize: IF you shut down wall street, you shut down the world economy. Not a bright idea.

These people and their anarchist values sicken me. "Yeah man, down with the government. We'll do great without them." The problem with anarchy and the problem with communism is the same. On paper and in idea form, they sound okay, but in reality, they fail. (Empirically proven)

[Cavernio]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

Spoken by a truly well-informed person who obviously knows the intent of all wall street protestors, and is especially in-tune with what the majority of the protestors think. /end sarcasm
Christ, at least the guy in the youtube link addressed key points and didn't put words in people's mouths.

And I know I shouldn't be saying this next part because I'm weakening what I just said by saying the movement is about shutting down wall street, but a total reform of the global economy seems fine by me. The stockmarket doesn't create anything, and if you look at it from the most basic of views, it's ludicrous that the collapse of the stockmarket would suddenly stop the production of goods and services.

[irionman]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

Spoken by a truly well-informed person who obviously knows the intent of all wall street protestors, and is especially in-tune with what the majority of the protestors think. /end sarcasm
Christ, at least the guy in the youtube link addressed key points and didn't put words in people's mouths.

And I know I shouldn't be saying this next part because I'm weakening what I just said by saying the movement is about shutting down wall street, but a total reform of the global economy seems fine by me. The stockmarket doesn't create anything, and if you look at it from the most basic of views, it's ludicrous that the collapse of the stockmarket would suddenly stop the production of goods and services.

Have you actually watched the occupy videos, the ones where they interview the protestors? Half of them don't know what they are protesting, some of them are there to legalize weed, and the others are there because they have nothing better to do than get out of their parents basements for a few hours. I laugh when I watch those people getting pepper sprayed and tazed.

[Reincarnate]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

The Occupy movement is an otherwise legitimate movement with a legitimate gripe that is unfortunately being tarnished by ignorance and unusual people.

All people really know is that they've worked hard their entire lives, and suddenly they were punished massively for something they had no control over -- while people who DID have influence and control were not hit nearly as hard. And they know the government and financial system had something to do with it.

I think that's a perfectly legitimate thing to be upset over. And that's an understatement.

The problem is that you've got a vocal minority making themselves look retarded, which causes people to become turned off to the message of OWS. This, in turn, causes people to act against their own financial best interests... especially if they turn around and vote complete herpderps into office for the sake of "personal values" as opposed to, oh, idk, sense and brains.

There is a lot of blame to go around. Largely, most of the blame goes to the government. It's fueled quite a few financial bubbles, made bad policy decisions, and has proven to be fairly ineffective at doing its job. Wall Street made the problem worse, and American citizens exposed themselves (perhaps unknowingly) to a lot of risk by taking on loans they couldn't reasonably afford.

I work a lot with other Wall Street types and I can tell you that most people are just trying to do their jobs, and do them well. The guys who are deliberately trying to scam people (e.g. the guys at Goldman Sachs who defrauded clients by selling CDO's that they had technically bet against) are by no means the majority. There are a couple of bad apples with an undeserved amount of influence and they've absolutely got to go, but again, they're not the majority -- and they certainly aren't synonymous with the company.

People just don't like getting ****ed with huge bills, depleted bank accounts, higher interest rates, and unemployment while others profit off their misery (and I mean that literally). But, in large part, all of it was made possible because the government had such ridiculous policies in place.

You can pick pretty much anyone and have justifiable reason to be upset at them. Personally, I think the government deserves the greatest wag of the finger.

[irionman]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

People just don't like getting ****ed with huge bills, depleted bank accounts, higher interest rates, and unemployment while others profit off their misery (and I mean that literally). But, in large part, all of it was made possible because the government had such ridiculous policies in place.

I find that one funny, seeing as most of the protestors I saw would never be able to hold a job. They whine about everything. I saw a quote the other day: In the 60s, 20 year olds gave everything. (vietnam) Today, 20 year olds want everything.

[TheSaxRunner05]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

Have you actually watched the occupy videos, the ones where they interview the protestors? Half of them don't know what they are protesting, some of them are there to legalize weed, and the others are there because they have nothing better to do than get out of their parents basements for a few hours. I laugh when I watch those people getting pepper sprayed and tazed.

Anyone can clip together the nutjobs of a movement into a single video. Just the other day I heard a radio program where they edited together people in the media saying endearing things about the protesters in between some nutjob saying that jews ran wall street. (Mark Levin's poor journalism ethics would be another thread, I wont go on there). I feel sad that non violent protesters are occasionally tazed or pepper sprayed in a country that supposedly has civil rights.

[fido123]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

I feel sad that non violent protesters are occasionally tazed or pepper sprayed in a country that supposedly has civil rights.

It's not all that often that stuff happens. Far more times than not the people getting tazed/pepper sprayed more then deserve it. Anyway personally although I don't disagree with the general message, most of the people down there seem to be pretty useless and stupid. One thing I hate about our generation is our entitlement and I see it all the time. One of the biggest beefs in occupy Toronto is "I'M A PHILOSOPHY/HISTORY/PHYCOLOGY MAJOR AND I CAN'T GET A JOB. **** THE GOVERNMENT". Well perhaps if that person went to school for something that's not overly saturated and employable they'd get a god damn job. I know COUNTLESS people like this. Most people I know who have graduated with these majors are working at a place like WalMart and think it's all the governments fault. The government isn't there to wipe your ass, it's there to maintain a healthy economical enviroment.

[Reincarnate]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

I find that one funny, seeing as most of the protestors I saw would never be able to hold a job. They whine about everything. I saw a quote the other day: In the 60s, 20 year olds gave everything. (vietnam) Today, 20 year olds want everything.

Most of the guys occupying Wall Street are employed. IIRC only 15% of them were unemployed, which isn't that much worse than the national average.

[irionman]

Re: Are occupy Wall Street protesters going after the wrong people?

Most of the guys occupying Wall Street are employed. IIRC only 15% of them were unemployed, which isn't that much worse than the national average.

I'm not sure what type of job lets someone go for a week to protest. (In some cases longer than a week) There's a reason I don't join unions. (But that's a different story for a different time)