1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • VulcanRevenge
    FFR Player
    • May 2009
    • 13

    #1

    1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

    Before we delve into this idea I would like to say that this isn't some conspiracy theory, nor is it some strange idea about how everything is different than we think it is. In fact I wouldn't be surprised to know there is a lack of surprise or epiphany amongst readers of this post. I strictly wish to discuss what I have observed to be a common fallacy of how people organize, and categorize living beings, objects, and ideas (and yes these are categorizations in and of themselves, oh the irony)

    As to the relevance of this fallacy, it has been according to my observation that a person who is of the understanding of this fallacy tends to show similar reactions to events as other people who view the world in this way. In other words, this fallacy has visible and vivid repercussions in many aspects of a person's behavior.

    Let's start with an interesting question. Imagine you are the principal of a prestigious elementary school and you are interviewing children to test their mathematical capabilities. You are interviewing a certain frustrating child who doesn't seem to understand the question you are asking. You say, "If I have two apples in my right hand, and three apples in my left hand how many apples do I have?" The child briefly looks at your hands and answers, "You have two apples in your right hand and three apples in your left hand." You try to clarify by saying, "So how many would I have all together?" The child responds in the same way, "You would have two apples in your right hand and three apples in your left hand." Trying not to lose your patience you try to ask a different question, "Okay, so if there were three people in a room and another person walks into that room how many people are in that room now?" the child responds, "Who are the people?"

    The child has the inability to categorize. Where most would see this as a major disability, some would understand the deep logic behind this idea. The idea is that there are no categories, that every object, and living being is inherently unique simply by existing. There are no two objects in the universe that are exactly alike. There are no two atoms that are exactly alike. In real life is there really a way to "add" objects together? Are you then assuming that by putting the objects in juxtaposition they become more than one of the same exact object?

    With this train of thought we can also say that in the true world, there is only one number. On the deepest level of categorization there would only be one of anything. I am in no way suggesting that we shouldn't categorize because the only way we advance in learning is through categorization. All learning is based on categorizing and relating situations. For example, we can assume that if you bite an apple that a part of that apple will come off and into your mouth whereas the apple will have a large part of it missing in the exact place where you took a bite and of the same size that your mouth was when you took a bite. However, saying that since a certain object will react in a certain way 100% of the time so another object of it's same type will act in the same way 100% of the time is incorrect. How can something be that certain? The only thing that is certain is uncertainty. I'm sure most of us have experienced a dud firework, a device that will work only after being kicked, or a person that just won't listen no matter how hard you put effort into trying to help them do so.

    You might be thinking at this point, "what's the point? Nobody assumes anything to be entirely accurate anyway." This is where our opinions would differ. Have you ever experienced anger? This emotion comes from a variety of ways and one of them can be unmet expectations, expectations you were certain an individual or an object would meet. How about frustration? Another emotion that can come from a wide range of sources one of which can be when your ideas you're certain of come into clash with another logical source.

    Uncertainty is everywhere. However, it isn't something to get depressed about, it's only something to realize and accept. Anger, embarrassment, pride, and frustration can be products of placing too much certainty on too few people and objects. If understood incorrectly however, this idea can destroy emotions such as confidence, hope, and love. This is why uncertainty should be understood as something that applies to all things but only to a somewhat limited degree. Just for example, I would say the most accurately someone could predict an event is about 99%. If we believe that number to be 100%, those negative emotions can come from the remaining percent of times our prediction is incorrect, whatever it really may be. If uncertainty is understood in all things, these negative emotions tend to be frequently avoided.

    The only thing that is certain is uncertainty. As I am writing at this moment, I understand that what I am writing isn't even certain, that there is probably someone out there who understands completely differently than I do and can logically disprove my argument. To that person, I thank you for the competition so that I might refine my own ideas and learn from yours.

    I do not ask that we do nothing or have no expectations, nor do I ask that we have no opinions or stop trying to learn about something we are uncertain of. My only desire is that we are wary and careful about what we place our confidence in and what we are certain of. It is imperative that we always leave room for error and uncertainty.
  • Mulie
    FFR Player
    • Jan 2009
    • 190

    #2
    Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

    It was a nice, thought-provoking read, but there's nothing to debate in this thread.

    Comment

    • Patashu
      FFR Simfile Author
      FFR Simfile Author
      • Apr 2006
      • 8609

      #3
      Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

      if you can't categorize objects you're p. screwed because everything scientific is discovered via induction and extrapolation to the unknown

      saying 'everything is different' isn't very useful since it ignores the fact that objects can still be similar and express similar phenomena but it doesn't give us any better tool to use in place of it
      Patashu makes Chiptunes in Famitracker:
      http://soundcloud.com/patashu/8bit-progressive-metal-fading-world
      http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Mechadragon/smallpackbanner.png
      Best non-AAAs: ERx8 v2 (14-1-0-4), Hajnal (3-0-0-0), RunnyMorning (8-0-0-4), Xeno-Flow (1-0-0-3), Blue Rose (35-2-0-20), Ketsarku (14-0-0-0), Silence (1-0-0-0), Lolo (14-1-0-1)
      http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee301/xiaoven/solorulzsig.png

      Comment

      • customstuff
        ♥C.S. + A.M.♥
        • Nov 2006
        • 4892

        #4
        Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

        Very good first post. Longer than any of my posts! Welcome to FFR and I somewhat agree, but somewhat not...

        Originally posted by MrMagic5239
        Placements are final, custom will not be moved to D6, just because he is good at jacks, and mediocre at just about every other FMO in the game.
        Originally posted by customstuff
        Originally posted by MrMagic5239
        welcome to D6

        start playing

        Comment

        • NFD
          FFR Player
          • Nov 2007
          • 4715

          #5
          Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

          This reminds me of www.timecube.com

          Comment

          • TC_Halogen
            Rhythm game specialist.
            FFR Simfile Author
            FFR Music Producer
            • Feb 2008
            • 19376

            #6
            Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

            Welcome to FFR!

            Such a thought-provoking idea, I'll give you that much. Here's my side on it: while no two atoms are the same, things are categorized in such a way that they can be grouped together. While they are not in fact 100% identical, I would say that it's just human nature.

            Your thought on this topic though is plausible in my opinion, which is why I can't really come up with a clean-cut rebuttal to it.

            Comment

            • Patashu
              FFR Simfile Author
              FFR Simfile Author
              • Apr 2006
              • 8609

              #7
              Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

              I'm pretty sure, actually, that the only thing making two particles of the same type distinct is their place and energy.

              There's no way to tag an electron and find it again later.
              Patashu makes Chiptunes in Famitracker:
              http://soundcloud.com/patashu/8bit-progressive-metal-fading-world
              http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Mechadragon/smallpackbanner.png
              Best non-AAAs: ERx8 v2 (14-1-0-4), Hajnal (3-0-0-0), RunnyMorning (8-0-0-4), Xeno-Flow (1-0-0-3), Blue Rose (35-2-0-20), Ketsarku (14-0-0-0), Silence (1-0-0-0), Lolo (14-1-0-1)
              http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee301/xiaoven/solorulzsig.png

              Comment

              • elchocolato
                FFR Player
                • Dec 2005
                • 6

                #8
                Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

                We can be certain 100% because of science Unless you bring it down to the quantum level where you've got Heisenberg's uncertainty and what not, but I suppose that's a whole other topic, and one that really doesn't pertain to eating apples...but then again this thread doesn't really pertain to eating apples either. I think I'm just hungry and can't move my eyes past that sentence "...if you bite an [sweet, delicious, mouth-watering!!!] apple...". Mmm.

                Comment

                • Cyanite
                  SIT THE **** DOWN.
                  FFR Simfile Author
                  • Feb 2007
                  • 1174

                  #9
                  Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

                  This is just splitting hairs, really.

                  When you have two apples in one place and three in another, and you claim to have five in total, you don't categorize them under the guidelines of "identical in every physical way". You're just acknowledging that all five are apples, in one shape or another, and they can be categorized under that basic idea.

                  Honestly just the fact that someone would put this much thought into such a basic principle is somewhat ridiculous in itself.

                  oh, and welcome to FFR


                  Originally posted by KgZ
                  oh yeah girls love it when I stick my massive arm in their mouth

                  Comment

                  • devonin
                    Very Grave Indeed
                    Event Staff
                    FFR Simfile Author
                    • Apr 2004
                    • 10120

                    #10
                    Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

                    Originally posted by Mulie
                    It was a nice, thought-provoking read, but there's nothing to debate in this thread.
                    This is a true statement. Thanks very much for the thread and the thought that went into it, but you're basically saying "If we assume X instead of Y, the result is X instead of Y" to which the only thing we can say is "Yup"

                    And for reference, as soon as the child makes a statement like "You have two apples in one hand and three in the other" they are already grouping things and understanding categories. The proper response to the question would have been "What's an apples" because an inability or unwillingness to group similar objects together because they are not identical would necessarily include a refusal to understand or acknowledge the whole concept of plurality in the first place.
                    Last edited by devonin; 05-11-2009, 09:47 PM.

                    Comment

                    • Reach
                      FFR Simfile Author
                      FFR Simfile Author
                      • Jun 2003
                      • 7471

                      #11
                      Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

                      In additional to what Cyanite said, there are various ways to conceptualize 1+1, not just through objects themselves.

                      Consider only proportions. 1+1 must = 2 through simple understanding of proportions; that is, if you double the amount of X, well, by definition you have double the amount of X. That's really what's happening here, and in math you can formalize this system and call it an axiom.

                      Whether or not what you're adding is 'exactly identical' or not is irrelevant; it's an abstract concept. From there, you can take that abstract concept and apply it to real world problems.



                      With respect to uncertainty, sure, everything is uncertain, but it doesn't matter. If you care that much about uncertainty, it's called quantum mechanics, and you can describe the universe using probabilities. Either way, it's math, and you're still using the exact same abstract concepts and applying them to the real world.

                      Comment

                      • Izzy
                        Snek
                        FFR Simfile Author
                        • Jan 2003
                        • 9195

                        #12
                        Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

                        1+1=2 simply because that's how we developed the mathematical system. We declared that it did by defining what 1 is. Math isn't definite in anyway to reality since it is artificial. I don't see the point of this. More of a dumb play on words imo.

                        Comment

                        • 0MG
                          FFR Veteran
                          • Nov 2008
                          • 29

                          #13
                          Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

                          To say that no two atoms are exactly alike is only saying that they are in different fixed positions possibly at different times, and therefore are different. But taking an individual atom, and then juxtapositioning it in into the same place of the other atom would therefore make it the same thing. Nonetheless to say it IS the same thing because there are obviously two identical atoms that aren't each other. That would rectify a whole new issue. There comes a point of irrelevance of whether or not something is the same or not. An apple can weigh more than another apple by .0000000000000000000001 of an oz, but it still is the same thing. They aren't each other like I said before, but they are the same.

                          Comment

                          • Izzy
                            Snek
                            FFR Simfile Author
                            • Jan 2003
                            • 9195

                            #14
                            Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

                            This is also most likely some copy paste post. Doubt he will respond.

                            Comment

                            • 0MG
                              FFR Veteran
                              • Nov 2008
                              • 29

                              #15
                              Re: 1 + 1 = Invalid: cannot add distinct objects

                              Originally posted by Izzy
                              This is also most likely some copy paste post. Doubt he will respond.
                              What?

                              Comment

                              Working...