Free Will vs. Determinism

[cornandbeans]

Do humans actually have full control over their actions or is it just a perception?

I'll state my views further along once I have someone to disagree with. >: )

[OMG its HIM]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

well, it depends on the situation, if someone is traped under a bus, asking for help, then that is your instincts in which you have no control over.
but something as simple as walking, then its someones own action.

[Xx{Midday}xX]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

A perception is another term meaning to understand something using the five senses that humans have. How do you percept human control?

I don't quite understand the question here, but if it's something concerning whether one is bound to fate or not, it's unanswerable.

[Adamaja456]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

This is something that i have wondered for quite a while. Do i really make my own choices in everyday life or no matter what i choose, it was meant to happen?

What If i spilled juice on my white shirt 5 minutes before school and i pick a different shirt to wear and then a pretty girl compliments my shirt? Maybe that was supposed to happen.

But on the other side, it scares me that i have no control over anything i do in life. I WANT to believe that i have free will and I make my own choices and thus deal with the unique outcomes. If you think your destiny is already planned, then whats the point of living life?

[FictionJunction]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

Determinism - The mind is a product of the brain. Everything is the result of prior actions, and so forth.

Free Will - God is forced (by his very fair and just nature) to give us free will |or| we are simply responsible for our actions.

Either way, I never bother with this discussion as there's no coherent way of proving that free will exists without the use of Deus Ex Machina (watch as my bias seeps through my post, hehe).

Physics stings more than God or the notion of an omniscient entity. Knowing whether free will exists or not doesn't matter because, in the end, we feel like we're choosing and are in control. I dismiss the notion as false because I dislike the idea, but even if it were true, it wouldn't make a difference.

hey!

[infinity.]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

well, it depends on the situation, if someone is traped under a bus, asking for help, then that is your instincts in which you have no control over.
but something as simple as walking, then its someones own action.

I'm pretty sure if someone was trapped under a bus, that i would be fully capable of not going over to help.

I feel like our actions aren't pre-determined, but there is always reasoning behind what we do. That a person wouldn't just randomly shoot a deer for no reason, that there was an emotion that triggered the action.

but im sure most of us think the same way.

[devonin]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

It appears to me that I have free will. Either I have free will, or I have a predetermined existence which is disguised by such an accurate illusion of free will that I cannot distinguish it from reality.

As such, which one is true is entirely meaningless to my existence, because either way, I appear to have free will.

[Reach]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

It appears to me that I have free will. Either I have free will, or I have a predetermined existence which is disguised by such an accurate illusion of free will that I cannot distinguish it from reality.

As such, which one is true is entirely meaningless to my existence, because either way, I appear to have free will.

If I knew that I did in fact not have free will, I think it would completely change my outlook on life. I don't think it's entirely meaningless at all.

I don't think it's a true dichotomy; I believe the answer is somewhere in between, where our choices are in fact heavily bound and limited by our biology and the universe, but there are independent choices our brains are capable of making on some level.

Regardless, even if the universe and everything in it is entirely deterministic in that no free choices can be made, I would say the future is indeterminate because of how the quantum world behaves. God does roll dice, and I don't think anything is meant to be, but rather everything that happens is determined by fixed but chance reactions combined with the input of some free will.

[devonin]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

If I knew that I did in fact not have free will, I think it would completely change my outlook on life.

My point is that each and every thing we could possibly point to as evidence suggests that we have free will. I'm not sure how someone could prove determinism at all.

Even a foolproof prediction of a future event wouldn't necessarily prove a -lack- of free will, though it would raise some very interesting metaphysical questions.

That said, one of my favourite things to do is to argue that the many-worlds theory of quantum mechanics actually requires determinism rather than being a way for free will to work.

[poulice]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

Well whether or not all of our events are predetermined, I don't think that means we have to be fatalist (fatalist being the people who believe that because they're not in control, nothing maters). If determinism is in fact the way the universe works, than that doesn't stop us from HAVING to do certain things to make our fate come true.

For example: someone wants a raise.

Fatalism ideology: I don't need to work any harder because if I'm supposed to get a raise, I'll get it. If I don't get it, than I was never supposed to get it.

Libertarianism (someone who believes in free will but not determinism) ideology: If I want to get that raise, I'm going to have to work harder so that someone else does not get it.

compatibilist (someone who believes in determinism and free will) ideology: If I need a raise than I need to work harder. If I get it, than I was supposed to get it, but if i wouldn't have worked hard I would not have gotten it and my fate would have being to not get a raise.

Now that I have stated which of the main three ideologies that you can choose from, I will give my personal opinion on which one I believe in and why.

I am a libertarian. I do not think that my "fate" is already predetermined. The idea that something is supposed to happen but NO ONE knows what it is supposed to be is completely useless to think. It does not change anything. Everyday, people make over thousands of choices, if all of those where the reagents to something even partially "fate related" than there would also be no proof. Fate is nothing more than a concept that people believe because it can't be disproved.

That is just the way I see it. The main thing thought, having no free will and thinking your fate is to be great will not happened unless you work or do something.

[devonin]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

But if determinism is true, fatalists are fated to be fatalists, so we shouldn't harp on them for it, except that if we do, we were fated to harp on them for it, so we shoudln't hold ourselves responsible...see, this is why people who are determinists tend to not want to attach too much significance to the value of choice.

[Tracelight24]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

This is very interesting and kind of reminds me of future predictions. Its like, if you see a vision of something happening in the future, it wouldn't make a difference if you tried to change it. In fact the reason the thing happened was probably because you tried to change it.

Lets say you predict you will lose 100 dollars by losing your wallet, or getting it stolen. No matter what you do, if the vision is true, somehow, you will end up getting it stolen. So, if determinism was true, being a fatalist would make sense, but we can't tell whether "fate" is true, because like devonin said, you would be fooled that you have free will as an illusion.

[Croenix]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

To me, determinism just seems like an easy way out of taking responsibility for one's own actions. You could theoretically answer "Fate made me do that" or "Fate made it so" to every question.

[vvav]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

I'm not particularly knowledgeable about advanced physics, so I wouldn't claim (as I believe I did about a year ago when we had this exact same discussion) that the universe is necessarily deterministic, but I believe that the brain is governed by the same physical laws as the rest of the universe, and that believing that we have some sort of "ability to choose" that sets us apart from everything else is simply arrogance.

From my understanding of physics, most basic laws of motion and such are pretty much deterministic, but there's plenty of weird crap such as quantum physics that screws with trying to prove the universe as a whole is deterministic, but I simply don't see how you can have the exact same universe potentially play out in multiple ways. If in one universe a planet is, over a finite period of time, moved a finite distance away from the "same" planet in another universe as time passes, assuming the universes were superimposed on each other perfectly but without being able to affect each other, then energy was somehow moved from one place to another with no cause.

[darkness1477]

Re: Free Will vs. Determinism

while we have free will their are certain outcomes for your choices that society has dictaded/ if you have a job and work really hard you can get a raise because society has dictaded that hard work is worth rewarding. if u rob a bank and get caught u will go to jail because society has dictaded that people should be punished for messing with other peoples money. r kelly will never go to jail because people think that as long as he keeps making good music he should be able to continue without inturuption