War: Is it worth it?

[JonXia]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

Wars may be driven by a leader's need for enjoyment? What the hell? Point out one example of that, please.

If I was Hitler, I'd take a relaxing day sniping out some Jews, no offense but the thrill of battle sometimes gets people off, or is just plain fun. Nowadays poeple have fun contolling people in a simulated enviroment making others fight for them. from Warcraft 3 to Halo people enjoy the whole army thing and have fun doing it, who is to say that ths would be like the same thing for a general with no videogames?

War is a costly, risky endeavor.

Pre-WW1, not very good economy. During and after, good economy. We start to go down into the great depression, Germany builds an army. We go to war. Economy good. Hell, Japan wouldn't be like it is today if we didn't drop the bomb (I'm Canadian, so I guess it wouldn't be "we" would it?) and to make myself sound like Stephen Colbert, You're welcome

And it seems you contradict yourself by also saying that war is not most likely driven by our more animalistic side but enjoyment as itself seems a pretty base reason for war.

Not contradiction, it is an animal side, yet we take enjoyment from it. Kind of like we are born predators and we go hunting to enjoy the hunt (As an example, not a clarification). We go to war yet we enjoy doing so.


Thanks Zythus and rzr. Props to you too.

I don't think that Rzr realizes that many jihadis are trained from the time that they can speak.

Which will further war, somebody has to make a profit and since they are trained from the time they can speak they also are taught to enjoy it.

The reason why we need democracy is to avoid power hungry individuals, like what I said before, that enjoy war or have their own ideals. We could just leave them in power, where there is no peace, women get raped like it is something you do before you have dinner, child executions are right beside the adults. How about we go in and try to do something about it. I don't care if there is an scondary motive like oil. If peace eventually comes out of it, then why not?

[Zythus]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

My basic theory for the Middle East: force a democracy to remain in Iraq and influince the other Middle Eastern countries into a democratic union. Keep it forced for approximately 70 years. My point to that theory? Because the people that are in charge now have been used to a dictatorship their entire lives. Once their dead and the next generation is in power they'll keep ve democracy because they were used to the [forced] democracy their entire lives.

And there at the other thread, you say that US should be extracted from Iraq because they are stirring more trouble. This recolutionary theroy of yours, how does it differ signifigantly from the woes they are doing now?
Again, a contradiction. Next generation? Their religion will influence them more than some preliminary democracy we throw at them. I'm inclined to think a revolt will occur pretty soon after this nice simulating democracy.

[rzr]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

I have not once, on any thread, said that I think America should withdraw from Iraq.
I do, however, agree with you that a revolt will occur in the near future. Hence why we should keep troops there, to control it.

[JonXia]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

And to shoot them, less people means more fearing America and more going to Democracy.

Then again more extremists

So we go to far black/whites.

Meh

[devonin]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

Okay, maybe this is the question that needs to be asked of you guys:

Why are you so sure that an American style democracy is the best form of government for everybody? What makes the American system so perfect and flawless that it ought to be forced onto everybody in the world? What if the people don't -want- a democracy? What if the culture and the society are based around tribal lines, respecting elders, or authority coming down from the church?

What you're suggesting is that the best course of action for America is enforced cultural genocide, enforced conversion to secular politics, and an insistance that these cultures, that are thousands of years old are -inferior- to the piddly little 230 years America has been around.

You don't find anything morally ambiguous about the suggestion that America is better than everyone else, so everyone else should be forced to become like America?

[Zythus]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

it is our discretion to promote democracy, mainly because US and Canada both use (or supposedly use) this system of government. I do not believe that democracy is the only choice for the middle east, but knowing that we live in peace in Canada or US, we are inclined to induce our successful government system upon theirs. Maybe dictatorship is the best government for them (hopefully, not an evil dictator). Maybe their religious factions are so intolerant of each other, we need the arbitration of dictatorship to preserve peace. Its not an easy question, its paradoxic and ideological at the same time.

At the same time, democracy isn't the flawless cogs and gears to success and power. A comparison to dictatorship, communism, or facism, democracy gives you the aluring chance to speak your mind, however this does not guarntee your happiness to one decision. You could have voted for a party, but they didn't get elected. But it is resentment knowing that you had a say in things, yet you never got it.

Dictatorship, one authoritarian figurehead makes the decisions, don't like it? Die. Its more sliding on your fear to obey the laws. If you don't like it here, its resentment without choice, one would feel like they just have to suck it up and live with it.

So the comparison would be:
Democracy: You were given a chance, yet your minority didn't call the shots like the majority did.
Dictatorship: You live to obey, you do not get any options. Hate us because you won't ever call the shots.

Preference perhaps depend on the individual to choose one of these. Some would perfer be not given a chance to say their mind because an elected government could not be a government they wish for. Others might find it invaluable to have their decision change and shape the country.

I personally, would go for democracy, yet (as long as the dictator is not evil) dictatorship wouldn't be too awful either.

[devonin]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

it is our discretion to promote democracy

Do you see a difference between promoting democracy and forcibly overthrowing a government and implementing a democracy despite being uninvited and unwelcome to do so?

[Zythus]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

Yeah, I do see the part where we made it a requisition of democracy, but perhaps it is just induction because we live in such a system, so we feel we need to have a "crusade" to convert other countries to our liking.

[purebloodtexan]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

If I was Hitler, I'd take a relaxing day sniping out some Jews, no offense but the thrill of battle sometimes gets people off, or is just plain fun. Nowadays poeple have fun contolling people in a simulated enviroment making others fight for them. from Warcraft 3 to Halo people enjoy the whole army thing and have fun doing it, who is to say that ths would be like the same thing for a general with no videogames?



Pre-WW1, not very good economy. During and after, good economy. We start to go down into the great depression, Germany builds an army. We go to war. Economy good. Hell, Japan wouldn't be like it is today if we didn't drop the bomb (I'm Canadian, so I guess it wouldn't be "we" would it?) and to make myself sound like Stephen Colbert, You're welcome



Not contradiction, it is an animal side, yet we take enjoyment from it. Kind of like we are born predators and we go hunting to enjoy the hunt (As an example, not a clarification). We go to war yet we enjoy doing so.


Thanks Zythus and rzr. Props to you too.



Which will further war, somebody has to make a profit and since they are trained from the time they can speak they also are taught to enjoy it.

The reason why we need democracy is to avoid power hungry individuals, like what I said before, that enjoy war or have their own ideals. We could just leave them in power, where there is no peace, women get raped like it is something you do before you have dinner, child executions are right beside the adults. How about we go in and try to do something about it. I don't care if there is an scondary motive like oil. If peace eventually comes out of it, then why not?

I apologize if I wasn't clear enough. My point is that no matter how long we keep trying to force democracy upon the extremists, they'll keep repelling us, possibly until every single jihadi is dead or until American troops surrender. Our only slim hope of winning is if one of the jihadis with a lot of influence decides that they should change their initiative and support democracy. Even then, that person will most likely be overthrown and killed by the rest of the militia.

[Zythus]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

I guess they are called extremeists for a reason, but not just the jihadis that go to those lengths. But if they reject a democracy, forced or not, then they would be basically asking for an authoritarian system or willing to fall into pandemonium. If they are faithful enough to "transcend" any efforts to resuscitate their position, forced or not, then be it and we shall await their fated war. I am not in the position to impose that they are blighted by their religious beliefs, but to go to that extremity, I would beg to differ.

[devonin]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

Or maybe they aren't even so vehemantly opposed to the concept of democratic government, so much as a culture that stands in opposition to almost everything their own culture stands for trying to force their beliefs on them.

[rzr]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

Perhaps the best to hope for if America withdraws, is a Middle Eastern civil war. That sounds horrible, I know, but at least in that scenario they would be solving their problems on their own without Western involvement and would come to a solution all on their own. Like the American civil war. Now we as a country live in [moderate] civility and have resolved our conflicts without foreign help.

[devonin]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

And since that's the -best- hope you can envision, and it will happen RIGHT AWAY if American withdraws, that suggests to me that you should start advocating for that withdrawl. If you can bring about the best case scenario right away, why would you try to stop it from happening?

[rzr]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

Touche'

[Zythus]

Re: War: Is it worth it?

This thread is now concluded.

Conclusion:

-It would be bad if US still occupied Iraq, but it would be evenly chaotic if they left.
-The Middle East needs a shakedown, its been accumulating for a time now.