What counts as an argument?

[madmatt621]

I had an interesting conversation with a skeptical friend the other day. We were talking about arguments (in the scientific sense of the word) their structure, form, and what counts as good and poor reasoning.

He made a statement to me that I would like to share and invite comment on. Now, he said to me something like

"Any non-viable reason recruited to support an argument, automatically makes it a non-argument. By definition when we say a reason is needed to support a conclusion, we mean a viable reason - only these will do. If the reason given is not viable it does not count as an argument at all (in the scientific sense of the word). Therefore, the argument can be legitimately ignored"

I only half-agree. If this was literally true there would be no such thing as a fallacious argument - indeed it would be an oxymoron or contradiction. The moment the argument becomes fallacious - it ceases to be an argument. In addition I do not think you can ignore the argument - because the conlcusion could be true for other reasons not given. His ideas might be nice in theory (though I dont think they are), but in practice they break down.

Also, in the context of education, I dont think anyone would learn anything by having their "arguments" ignored - I find this reaction a bit extreme. Of course, not all ideas are equal, but it is always important to know why that is and to highlight that in the discussion.

What do others think here? Is it just semantics, or can anyone see the conceptual difference between our positions. Maybe its me.....I was more than a little...errr..shall we say

Poor reasons = poor arguments dont they?
or do poor reasons = unsupported statements?

[devonin]

Re: What counts as an argument?

An invalid support for an argument doesn't invalidate the argument, it invalidates the support.

Now...if that was your -only- support, then yes, the argument falls through, but if the other supports for your stance are valid and worth considering, then your argument stands.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: What counts as an argument?

An argument can be wrong and still be an argument. In fact, for an argument to occur between two people this virtually has to be the case for at least one person, does it not? A reason therefore doesn't have to be viable to be part of an argument. More importantly, in the course of an argument the viability of any given set of reasoning is what is definitionally in contention.

What your friend is saying doesn't make any sense.

[Relambrien]

Re: What counts as an argument?

I think the point the OP's friend was trying to make was that "The term 'argument' (as in, a set of reasoning within a debate) implies validity. If the stance is supported by invalid evidence, the stance cannot be called an 'argument' and therefore holds no bearing in the debate."

Though I disagree, "argument" does not necessarily imply validity; it refers only to a set of reasoning. An argument can, in reality, be valid even if the support given is invalid. For instance, you can say "I think the world is round because my friend said so." The "argument" would be "The world is round," which is correct, but the supporting evidence, "my friend said so," is invalid. This does not necessarily invalidate the argument, but for purposes of a debate, it is enough to throw out the argument. If other, valid support was given, however, the argument is still worth considering. For instance, "I think the world is round because my friend said so; also, how could the world be flat if there is a horizon on the ocean? A curve is necessary to create one."

[devonin]

Re: What counts as an argument?

Well, I think instead of "argument" the word the OPs friend might have been looking for was 'stance' In order for your -stance- to be worth considering, the supports you have for that stance need to be at least somewhat valid or have bearing on the stance you are defending.

I'd say it is more like:

Stance: The world is round
Support: People have travelled all the way around it
Support: Views from orbiting satellites and ships suggest it
Support: My friend said so

Your third support holds no particular weight, but that doesn't, on its own, invalidate the stance. When in Relambrien's example, the -only- support you have for your stance is one that is an invalid support, then you have an -undefensible- stance, though you are still perfectly able to try and argue it.

[ljw5021]

Re: What counts as an argument?

An argument is a stance on an issue that you are prepared to defend with facts and figures. A yes/no "argument" isn't an argument at all, it's a contradiction.

[devonin]

Re: What counts as an argument?

An argument is a stance on an issue that you are prepared to defend with facts and figures. A yes/no "argument" isn't an argument at all, it's a contradiction.

Uh...that makes no sense unless you're trying to get at something other than what was implied by your statement.

Many stances on issues are a "yes/no" stance. Being either for or against a given concept. You can have perfectly valid arguements on those grounds.

[Vendetta21]

Re: What counts as an argument?

Any collection of claims in which one or more is implied or claimed to be supported by the others is an argument.

As for the quality of the argument: that depends on what is stated. An argument can be valid but can still be a ****ty argument, all valid means is that the conclusion necessarily follows the support claims. An argument is a good or sound argument only when all the support claims are true, and the argument is valid.