Grades

[devonin]

Re: Grades

This is a huge flaw, and the fact that the system really refuses to change regardless of failure in this aspect is a sign, to me, that grades are more important with respect to capitalism than learning.

We could really take a lesson from France on this one. In France, degrees are issued by the state. So regardless of where you go to school, your degree is the same across the board, issued by the government of France.

This has kept tuition costs -incredibly- low, and the incentive for students is to go where they percieve the best teachers to be, rather than where they can afford to go, or if money isn't a problem, where the "best" degree comes from.

This is a further incentive to teachers to do their best to keep the classes interesting, informational and educational, because if a school gets a reputation for having crummy teachers, students have no real incentive to not just pick a different school.

[stretchypanda]

Re: Grades

Which was my point. In highschool, you're being made to repeat only the class you failed in, and can advance in any class you passed. Thus it isn't so much a big deal. Whereas in elementary school it has been my experience that you either pass the grade or are held back.

If elementary school were to be segmented in the way that highschool is, you could apply the same logic, only making students repeat the single subject they failed instead of holding them back completely.

The kids who are emotionally unready to advance are a seperate subject entirely from those who have the necessary maturity to advance a grade, but have failed to learn subject matter.

I totally misread your post, sorry.

In university education programs, there is a huge, huge, HUGE push toward differentiating instruction. What I've seen in schools is that there's really no support for differentiation in the real world. Lawmakers, administrators, parents don't care how you teach kids (I realize this is not always the case with parents). You're given 50 minutes a day to cram as much information as you possibly can into these little minds, but you have to make sure that information will help the students pass their effing standardized tests.

A lot of schools in Texas basically stop teaching after the TAKS and TEKS are over. They take their vacations, spend the rest of the year letting the kids play games or study for other classes -- when they could be spending that time teaching students the skills they'll need for the next level in whatever subject.

I think that we are taking what we are learning about how to teach to heart and loving it, but I am starting to realize that it is hard not to fall back onto what is easy when you consider all the pressure that is placed on a teacher.

[ToshX]

Re: Grades

I hope my argument wasn't crushed sometime inbetween the first post and this, but I can't bring myself to read every single post <__<

Personally, what I think is that grades do their job in a matter of ways. I mean most grading systems are set up to be so easy that if you work, you can get good grades. I mean being smart is a great thing, but if you don't work, you probably won't get good grades, even if you do good on all of the tests. So why does this matter? Well this matters because when you get a job, you're going to HAVE to work in order to keep your job. You can't just sit around and talk to your fellow workers all day like you pretty much could in school. The grading system will show the ones giving out jobs who is willing to work for their company and who is not willing to work for their company(well, a general idea, of course it really varies from job to job and person to person). If someone has straight D's on their report card in college, they probably aren't to do their job quite as well if a person with, say, straight B's.

But if you factor in the stuff like the fact that there are some garbage teachers who can't teach what they need to, and also there are some really nice teachers who will pretty much give people an A just for showing up and paying some attention whatsoever, it really gets offset. So my argument could really bring this either way.

EDIT: @Amanda yeah, in my schools, after standardized testing was over, we literally watched movies and even went to "pool parties" and all sorts of things until high school. And even in high school, we just watched movies and did mindless crap all day after the testing was over.

[tsugomaru]

Re: Grades

I really hate the people who beg for extra grade points when the want/need it. Grades, in a sense, is a currency between students and teachers. If a student wants the grade, then in general, they'll work harder for it and what they get is what they deserve.

Imagine a class where you only get one grade, and that's the grade you get for your final. All the other things in between, labs, papers, homework assignments, and tests all count for nothing towards your grades. Do you think students will actually do them? Their minds are telling them they'll be entirely safe if they fail this or that assignment because it won't affect their grade. As such, they'll never study for said class and study for something where the points do matter.

~Tsugomaru

[Reach]

Re: Grades

If someone has straight D's on their report card in college, they probably aren't to do their job quite as well if a person with, say, straight B's.

This might be true, but lets close the gap for a second. What about a D and a C student? What about the difference between an A and a B student?

I think this becomes a problem. The problem is, the system does differentiate between people that have an A on a B, but on what grounds? What are they proving? Is the A student more clever? Did they even work harder or did they play the system harder? What if the B student just isn't that great at tests but is an otherwise outstanding person? What if the A student had an easier marker? You can begin to see the confounding variables here.

Sure, it's easy to say well 'The A student is surely better than the F student', but the system breaks down when you start questioning the difference between an A and a B...and this miniscule difference can be the difference between thousands of dollars in scholarship, and between admittance and rejection.

And let's not even complicate things by asking what the difference between an A and a B is in completely different schools, in completely different states. How can you know? What if the B student is actually better? Hell, screw that, the difference between a bloody teacher in the same school can make that difference just as bad because grades are not standardized. There are no grounds on how what questions should be on the tests and how they should be marked, and as such grades can vary like the weather even in the same school.

EDIT: @Amanda yeah, in my schools, after standardized testing was over, we literally watched movies and even went to "pool parties" and all sorts of things until high school. And even in high school, we just watched movies and did mindless crap all day after the testing was over.

Wow. I thought my schools were bad XD

[archbishopjabber]

Re: Grades

I'm not sure if this is completely on the topic but... public education systems seem to have this idea that if they give people good grades by lowering the standards it means they are educating the students. I have seen with NYS Regents Exams that they have curved the tests to the point where someone of diminished mental capacity has no problem passing them. I think the grade system is valid but I think grades should be much more difficult to achieve. Students should not be worried about whether they are getting 98's or 99's but instead see it as an accomplishment if they are able to pass. This would simply mean much more difficult tests and rigorous grading standards. America is falling behind in terms of education big time, and we have some major catching up to do. If it means failing a large number of students then so be it, better to cut them loose then let them drag those who are motivated and talented down...

[devonin]

Re: Grades

Ugh, don't get me started on curving.

If everyone in the class scores high, you have either a bright class, or a test that is too easy. Adjust next time. If you determine that the problem was your test was too easy, look at assigning a more difficult additional assignment.

If they score too low, same deal. Either your class isn't very bright, or you made your test way too hard. Adjust for next time, and if you determine that it was your test that was too hard, look at assigning a make-up to balance it out.

Just arbitrarily going "Aaaand, I'm changing all your marks so you fit onto this chart" is incredibly academically dishonest if you ask me.

[Reach]

Re: Grades

Talk about academic dishonesty...they changed the questions on the provincial english exam here to make the exam SIGNIFICANTLY easier, and thus boosted the provincial average from like 48 to 64. And then they claim that their 'new programs' and stuff have 'significantly increased literacy levels' without mentioning to parents that they made the exam much easier. As we see, yet another case of the number being more important than what the students are actually learning.

This is one of my primary concerns, and it just keeps appearing time and time again (around here at least). I completely disagree with the current grading system because it puts a meaningless number above education and learning...which is what education is supposed to be about.

But uh yea, I don't like bellcurving the marks. And yes, when every student is getting 90's you know you're marking them far too easily. Most of my classes had averages in the 60's...where they should be. But i've been in and heard of a lot of classes where noone fails, and the averages are incredibly high. I remember talking to a guy that had like 98 in his grade 12 math class, where as I was working my butt off to get a 90. Then, around came the standardized provincial exam and he got a 40 and I got a 90. Someones tests and material were slightly too easy >___>

If they score too low, same deal. Either your class isn't very bright, or you made your test way too hard. Adjust for next time, and if you determine that it was your test that was too hard, look at assigning a make-up to balance it out.

One time I had a physics prof and his test was so hard the class average was like 20%. He was like laughing while we took the test >__>

Anyway, I don't even think I passed but ended up with an A or something because of the curve XD

[AOL_blows911]

Re: Grades

To me, grades are useful to a certain point. It's already been brought up that they are subjective teacher to teacher, school to school, and that your personality/temperament has as much effect on their grades as your actual knowledge on the subject. Overall, however, I feel that grades give people a scope of the students overall performance.

I, being a junior in high school, have to worry about my grades because I want to go to a good college. By knowing the difficulty of the class and teacher, I can see how much effort I need to put into the class to maintain a good grade, and so the whole system helps me to make sure I don't fall behind. However, for the same reason that the grades are not set to a standard (other than the A-F system), that means nothing to other people who didn't take the class. All they see is the letter and percent. If I got a 98% in my latin class for the quarter, but a 84% in AP Physics, then my grades say I did better in Latin then Physics, which, technicaly, I did. However, I hate latin, and I got an A in it because the teacher litteraly can't read my writting and assumes I did the work. Hurray for a free A. But my physics teacher, being 50 years younger and a ton smarter, picks up on when I BS the work and when I really understand it. So, because I had an easier time in Latin then Physics, my grades say I'm better at Lating, which is complete bull crap.

Grades also become to important for some people. I know that if I get B's in highschool and do well on my ACT (I got a 30, and I'll be retaking it next year too, because the highest score counts), then most colleges will realise that I can just be lazy at times even if I understand the material. If I were a person who made sure to get all the homework and extra credit done (a grade point whore >.>), then I wouldn't necessarily understand the subject matter. Whats more important overall, an ok grade and an understanding of the knowledge, or an A but not fully understanding the subject. Or maybe I should just stop playing Gears of War and do my homework sometime....nah

[Relambrien]

Re: Grades

Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but grades are pretty useless in my school. If you actually give a crap, you will get an A in any class, easily. If you don't, you will fail.

In my school, grades are a measure of how much you CARE, not how much you know. I have not seen a SINGLE person in my school who actually cares about a class, who got a C or below in that class. Things can come up to reduce your grade to a B or so, but I have yet to see anyone get a C or less in a class they care about.

Grades as a concept are great, but the problem is that grades are becoming more of a measurement of whether or not someone could give a crap about it. My school's curriculum is very easy if you care, and if you don't care, you're going to fail from all the zeroes anyway.

[Cyanite]

Re: Grades

My main problem with grades are the huge fluctuations between individual teachers and the curriculum taught in schools, which has been brought up.

I believe that the best way you could teach students would be to assign papers, essays, worksheets, etc. as any teacher normally would, but make every single assignment optional. Then, administrate a test every 1 or 2 weeks, to keep the information fresh in the student's minds, then give a quarterly final over everything.

In this way you're not only measuring the student's intelligence but also their ability to complete tasks given to them without having their hand held the entire way, which is something easily applied in the work force.

Another huge issue with grades is extra credit. Extra credit is given weekly by some of my school's teachers, while others have never given extra credit assignments to anyone. Extra credit, as I see it, usually takes the form of two things:

1. Your teacher assigned "Extra Credit" questions on tests. These are either very miniscule points, discussed briefly in class that don't really matter to the curriculum forcing you to rely on memorization of past discussions, or completely off-topic questions that pertain to absolutely nothing worthwhile (i.e., something memorable in sports, pop culture, etc. This happens a LOT with some of my teachers).

2. Your teacher assigns extra credit assignments in the form of an essay or project that goes in depth on a subject that really doesn't matter much in the overall curriculum. For instance, you need to make a poster about a certain concentration camp during the Holocaust, and go in detail about that. This is something not applied to the curriculum, or taught to any of the other students.

Either way it's something that's not appliable to the overall curriculum, and adds points to certain kid's overall grades that are supposed to measure their knowledge of said curriculum.

[ToshX]

Re: Grades

Relam, that's how my schools were, pretty much. The thing is that I'm smart, but the problem is that I just don't care to do the work at all. I mean, I survived by doing the tests and stuff, but the homework killed me at the same time. I'm probably biased, but I don't think it should be like that. Even a lot of the teachers don't think it should be like that, but they know that there's nothing they can do. Some of them literally went to meetings JUST to try and stop some of the nonsense, but it didn't change a thing.