Order vs. Chaos

[MeaCulpa]

Re: Order vs. Chaos

i'm saying that nothing absolutely chaotic exists. there is nothing that is completely random...

Well not yet, but according to the Second Law, this will happen eventually.

I presume by "natural processes", mega was referring to spontaneous ones? In that case, such processes naturally lead to a decrease in free energy and an increase in entropy. More entropy = more randomness = more chaos in the long run.

Also, I think there might be conflicting views here on what "order" and "chaos" are referring to. I don't see mega's view (chaos and order in his forum post) in the same light that I see Guido's view (exergy, entropy, etc.)

[Reach]

Re: Order vs. Chaos

if there were true randomness, it would make its way up and we'd have really weird **** going on all the time.

Oh but there is. You just don't see any of it. The entire world around you, if broken down into fundemantal pieces, would make absolutely no sense to you. It is inherently impossible to attempt to understand what the world actually looks like and what is really happening, because your brain has been tuned by evolution to put things together into chunks we can understand.


Also, the random vs non random argument is pointless. Realize that even if quantum mechanics is goverened by an outside, quantifiable set of parameters, you still can't tell the difference between that and the random events we can see. Thus it has no practical value. All experimental results suggest randomness, and they would still appear random in the same way to us even if they were controlled values.

It's semantic nonsense and leads to a whole bunch of arguments that lead nowhere.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Order vs. Chaos

Well y'know, semantics is the part of language that handles meaning. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to have mutually agreed upon definitions for a word.

For instance, does entropy really imply chaos? It seems to me it only implies a decrease in the available energy to do work. If my arm falls off because I used it too much, my arm can still be described, it just can't be used and it isn't in a form I'm comfortable with.

If we're defining chaos as whatever patterns create immediate discomfort to human perception, then I suppose entropy very well is chaos. Death is certainly a form of entropy, although death is also part of natural order.

If we're defining chaos as lack of order then I truly don't see how entropy could be chaos, in a system of maximum entropy nothing is happening. There are no processes to be disordered. If there is anything in the system at all it remains in an order determined by the laws of physics and by what work was done before the energy was depleted from the system.

Reach, you seem to be using some sort of conglomeration of these two understandings, as do most of you, but you seem to be leaning more towards the first one.

Also, the random vs non random argument is pointless. Realize that even if quantum mechanics is goverened by an outside, quantifiable set of parameters, you still can't tell the difference between that and the random events we can see. Thus it has no practical value. All experimental results suggest randomness, and they would still appear random in the same way to us even if they were controlled values.

This goes back to my first post, argument from ignorance. It doesn't particularly matter that human beings are incapable of understanding a form of order, it only matters that there is order or not. Since there very well could be order, there is no reason why there couldn't be order, and there is a large amount of suggestiveness that there is order, there is probably order.

If we're talking for purposes of psychology or in some bizarre enmeshment of physics and spirituality, then your statement can take us somewhere down that road.

As I said at the very beginning though, the picture we get of chaos as something 'real' is likely an illusion, caused by the fact that all the facts are not yet in.

[FoJaR]

Re: Order vs. Chaos

^^^^^^^ what i am trying to say.

[Reach]

Re: Order vs. Chaos

I understand that. It's still not practical.

From a practical point of view, random is taken to mean 'random for all practical purposes'. You achieve nothing by saying it is ordered, because I don't think quantum mechanics claims to be absolutely random in the first place.

The randomness occurs in particular because when ATTEMPTING TO MEASURE (this is key), i.e. observe a 'random' event, wave functions become entangled (I'm sure you've heard that observers change the outcome).

My point being, it will always be random with respect to measurement and observation. I think you're wrong when you say that it only matters if it is ordered or not, because otherwise I agree with you.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Order vs. Chaos

The topic is about order and chaos, the actual things. It might not be entirely pragmatic or even possible for human beings to understand quantum mechanics, but if reality is entirely ordered then there is no such thing as chaos.

In this case it is only the limits of human perception which gives us the illusion of chaos.

Think Kant and the difference between the noumenal and phenomenal worlds.

[megaxxx]

Re: Order vs. Chaos

Wait a minute! Since when did I make a thread that actually made sense. *Pats himself on the back.* Anyway, it takes alot of concentration to see exactly why order and chaos do work in unison. This discussion may take an ugly turn.

[FoJaR]

Re: Order vs. Chaos

I understand that. It's still not practical.

From a practical point of view, random is taken to mean 'random for all practical purposes'. You achieve nothing by saying it is ordered, because I don't think quantum mechanics claims to be absolutely random in the first place.

The randomness occurs in particular because when ATTEMPTING TO MEASURE (this is key), i.e. observe a 'random' event, wave functions become entangled (I'm sure you've heard that observers change the outcome).

yeah that's what i'm saying. the natural occurrences are not chaotic in and of themselves, it's our perception/lack of knowledge about them that introduces the errors, which is why we need statistics. not because there are actual chaotic events going on.

[Jpshadsy]

Re: Order vs. Chaos

Ok so... your basically saying that there is order in chaos? Right?

[Kilroy_x]

Re: Order vs. Chaos

More like... Chaos is just order we don't understand.

[Jpshadsy]

Re: Order vs. Chaos

That makes alot more sense thanks Kilroy