Alpha and Omega: Religious Question

[Nonexistent_One]

I have been taught that God is the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end. God always was, and always will be. He was not created, nor will he ever be extinguished. This condition of being infinite is unconceivable to mere human minds--we can't explain how God is this way. I have also been taught that God created the Universe. I believe that this is the central purpose of religion--to answer the question, "How did everything come to exist?"

If theists can accept that God has no beginning nor an end, then why is it such a far reach to assume that the Universe itself always was and always will be? Why do theists assume that the universe had to be created? Maybe it's because the Universe isn't the loving, caring, and just being that they have come to rely on in times of emotional distress, or just for overall comfort.

Could God have existed outside of existence in order to create existence?

Before we move along to our responses, let's have a look at the Christian documentation of the "Creation." God created the earth in 6 days and rested on the seventh. The use of the word "days" alone is controversial, some saying that it means "24 hours," some saying that it means "era," and others saying that it's merely "symbolic." Even with all of these viewpoints, I'd like to consider one question: If God is omnipotent, shouldn't creation have been instantaneous? And why in the world would a Omnipottent GOD need to rest after completing such a menial task (in relation to his infinite power). I hope that no one takes this book for literal truth, because, if it is true (that God exists), it's a pretty horrid representation of an all-powerful God. I'd say that the Bible is seriously out-dated, and that it would be wise to consider a more modern approach to a book that is the center of a religion, so as not to confuse people.

Thoughts?

~NEO

[jewpinthethird]

RE: Alpha and Omega: Religious Question

Now, I hope you are not expecting to come to a definent conclusion to this question from the responses on this board.

Just the idea of how the universe came to be is enough to make one's mind implode and ooze out of their skull. To me the Big Bang theory is just as nonsensical as God doing some crazy Holy Spirit Voodoo and making a bunch of crap appear out of nowhere. Though you could argue that "WELL, S/HE IS GOD" but what is God?

You hope that no one takes the Bible for literal truth, but fact is A LOT OF PEOPLE DO. Why? Because people are gullible as hell.

I could go on for quite a while, but I wont...because I am lazy.

[ThEclipse]

RE: Alpha and Omega: Religious Question

The big question for me is that if "god" supposedly created everything in this world and what not, who created "god"?

[Kilgamayan]

You can't look at faith logically. Why do you persist in trying to do so?

[Nonexistent_One]

You can't look at faith logically. Why do you persist in trying to do so?

Because blind faith is nonsense. I find it impossible for me to believe in something that doesn't make sense--how can you? Just "having faith" is BS, and I'm sorry if I sound aggravated, but the truth is, I am. I've heard that so many times, I start convulsing when I hear it now. This "faith" you speak of is not something to rely on; it might be nice to believe it, but it could quite possible get you killed. There have been countless instances where medicines were refused because of faith, and the result was a prolonged, tortured death. Some people have thought that praying has cured a deadly disease, and they stop taking medication because of it, only to die a while later. There have been serial killers who used the excuse that it was "God's will," and they sincerely believe that God is going to reward them in heaven. It is instances like these that scare me about people with "blind faith," and, although these instances might seem radical, they have occurred.

This "faith” is like calling your best friend in a situation of dire need, and having them tell you, “Oh, I’m busy right now, but just try to get along with just your faith in me.”

But, this isn't the topic, now is it? I'm wondering about what theists think of my question. So, if you really want to debate about just "having faith"—even though we can’t debate about it logically—go back to the topic already set up for this purpose, entitled “Religion for Retards” in the Critical Thinking Forum.

~NEO

[Kilgamayan]

Just having faith is "BS" to you because you try to look at religion logically.

You already got a theist's answer. Your question is invalid because you're trying to look at God logically.

You're going to keep getting aggravated because you keep trying to look at faith logically. Everyone knows the "Could God microwave a burrito so hot even he couldn't eat it?" question. That's just not how it works. Give it up.

[Nonexistent_One]

To state that a question is invalid is implying that it is illogical, and yet you say that my question is of a logical basis. You are trying to argue with logic also (in order to argue one must use logic), but you fail in providing the evidence to support your claims. "You have to have faith" is the same as saying "I don't know."

I will never give up, because my questioning is a search for truth and knowledge, not a search for unbased claims. I can't help it; it is part of human nature to be curious, and I am particulalrly conrtolled by this behavior.

~NEO

[DracIV]

The looking at faith with logic as part of your religious practices is often called deism. I don't have much to add to this arguement, but I would definately pick "None of the above" as none of them are true on the poll.

[Kilgamayan]

To state that a question is invalid is implying that it is illogical

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=invalid

Show me where invalid means the same thing as illogical.

The rest of your point is moot because it's based on the above misconception.

And now I'm arguing logic because this portion of the discussion has turned away from religion and toward language, so don't try to wrangle that back in because you'll be wrong.

I will never give up, because my questioning is a search for truth and knowledge, not a search for unbased claims. I can't help it; it is part of human nature to be curious, and I am particulalrly conrtolled by this behavior.

Then you're doomed to spend your entire life getting more and more frustrated over religion every day, because you won't find an answer until (a) you're enlightened by religion, or (b) you die/give up some other way. Let me know how that turns out, mmmkay?

EDIT: Looked up deism. Maybe you'd be interested.

[LostUserName]

Could God have existed outside of existence in order to create existence?
I think God and Existence are together yet seprate. Without existence there is no god because with god is existence.
And as for the power of god. It really depends on God's personality. For many craftsman it's all about pride in their work. The love making whatever it is they make. The attention to detail. The blood, sweat, and tears! Sure god could easily mass produce anything he wants and for god time is just relative and this is as far as I can go. My mind is boggled.

[ramonesfan]

You can't look at faith logically. Why do you persist in trying to do so?

Because blind faith is nonsense. I find it impossible for me to believe in something that doesn't make sense--how can you? Just "having faith" is BS, and I'm sorry if I sound aggravated, but the truth is, I am. I've heard that so many times, I start convulsing when I hear it now. This "faith" you speak of is not something to rely on; it might be nice to believe it, but it could quite possible get you killed. There have been countless instances where medicines were refused because of faith, and the result was a prolonged, tortured death. Some people have thought that praying has cured a deadly disease, and they stop taking medication because of it, only to die a while later. There have been serial killers who used the excuse that it was "God's will," and they sincerely believe that God is going to reward them in heaven. It is instances like these that scare me about people with "blind faith," and, although these instances might seem radical, they have occurred.

This "faith” is like calling your best friend in a situation of dire need, and having them tell you, “Oh, I’m busy right now, but just try to get along with just your faith in me.”

But, this isn't the topic, now is it? I'm wondering about what theists think of my question. So, if you really want to debate about just "having faith"—even though we can’t debate about it logically—go back to the topic already set up for this purpose, entitled “Religion for Retards” in the Critical Thinking Forum.

~NEO

bob marley died that way he refused to amputate his cancerous toe because he is rastafarian and they don't do the whole amputation thing

[Nonexistent_One]

Show me where invalid means the same thing as illogical.

in·val·id
adj.
1. Not legally or factually valid; null: an invalid license.
2. Falsely based or reasoned; faulty: an invalid argument.

val·id
adj.
1. Well grounded; just: a valid objection.
2. Producing the desired results; efficacious: valid methods.
3. Having legal force; effective or binding: a valid title.
4. Logic.
a. Containing premises from which the conclusion may logically be derived: a valid argument.
b. Correctly inferred or deduced from a premise: a valid conclusion.
5. Archaic. Of sound health; robust.

Correctly based or reasoned=valid=logical
Falsely based or reasoned=invalid=illogical

My argument still stands.

Then you're doomed to spend your entire life getting more and more frustrated over religion every day, because you won't find an answer until (a) you're enlightened by religion, or (b) you die/give up some other way. Let me know how that turns out, mmmkay?

That is all very possible, and I accept that it will most likely happen that way. That is the burden of wisdom (there is a quote from some philosopher who said something along those lines, but I can't recall it).

By the way, that deism link was interesting. I still have some differences with it, though. If I did believe in a God, my concept of it would be so totally different, it wouldn't jive. I don't really feel like explaining the thoughts I've hade on 'if God exists,' but maybe I'll start a new topic sometime.

~NEO