assimilation

[massflavour]

sorry for thread spam, but ive got things on my mind heh

is mass assimilation an historiographical inevitability or is it just people being dicks?

the most obvious example would be the assimilation of First Nations in Canadian history... and i've studied it a fair amount. but i'm wondering what the consensus is among historians today; i just don't know who to ask.

perhaps devonin can put his two cents in here.. but i'm interested in everyone's opinions, of course.

[qqwref]

Re: assimilation

I think some level of assimilation is pretty much inevitable to get a place in society. For instance, I can't imagine a group who completely refuses to use computers ever really being a useful part of society. Plus, cultures will always change over the generations when new forces come into play. But the "people being dicks" thing comes in when a group is forced to assimilate more than they have to, just to satisfy someone else. No native American tribe would ever reasonably need to give up their shared language, history, or culture to become an equally useful part of society, so making them all do so is tyrannical and wrong. I'm sure there are some very fine-line cases, though. It's probably fair to say that any necessary assimilation would happen on its own given enough time, although it may take a generation or two.

[massflavour]

Re: assimilation

there's some degree of inevitability.. in canada we had been systematically doing it with residential schools and reserve lands until about 1996... it still takes place, of course. but it takes longer than 2 generations ROFL do u know how hard it is to completely wipe out a culture?

im not speaking about trivial assimilative things like.. using computers. im speaking strictly about the complete destruction of another culture in favour of new values mang

i wish this forum was more active lol

[Reincarnate]

Re: assimilation

read Guns, Germs, and Steel

Long story short, it's pretty much no different from any other form of evolution. You'll typically get a combination of the two (assimilation vs. multiculturalism), with different cultures getting absorbed/strengthened/wiped out over time.

We don't know if 100% assimilation is possible yet because evolution is blind, but IMO it isn't likely.

[devonin]

Re: assimilation

Canada did a horrible job trying to assimilate Native North Americans. The US did it much better by basically just saying "Yup, there's a city here now, better pay your taxes and get a job"

Canada has and still has made far too many concessions to Natives to ever claim to be trying to assimilate them into Canadian culture.

Add to that the way that Canada is such a hotbed of multiculturalism, and you basically forfeit any chance at formulating a unified culture.

If you asked the average international citizen for some objects and events that characterise the United States, you'd probably get "Football, Basketball, Guns, Fast Food"

These are all things that actually DO factor in, in a pretty large way, in the lives of many, if not MOST Americans. Do the same for Canada and the stereotypical responses are "Hockey, Poutine, Beavers" things which, on the whole, are a LOT LESS meaningful to your average Canadian.

While residential schools were certainly an attempt to Christianize natives, it wasn't remotely systematic or abusive enough to try to eradicate their culture outright, and when you consider just how systematic and abusive it WAS, that's saying something. Canada has always been too tolerant legislatively to be a serious threat to the destruction of foreign cultures inside its borders.

As soon as you consider that Sikhs in the RCMP are allowed to wear turbans, you'll realise just how bad Canada is at trying to enforce a unified culture on its citizens.

[massflavour]

Re: assimilation

yeah i'm not implying that canada is trying to make one unified culture... it's clearly futile. i guess i oversimplified; the residential schools were indeed an attempt to eradicate their old ways and spirituality, particularly.

however, i would say that there is sort of a loose canadian culture that exists which we somewhat dragged the first nations into.. it's hard to deny that.

[SKG_Scintill]

Re: assimilation

Culture sausage

[devonin]

Re: assimilation

yeah i'm not implying that canada is trying to make one unified culture... it's clearly futile. i guess i oversimplified; the residential schools were indeed an attempt to eradicate their old ways and spirituality, particularly.

however, i would say that there is sort of a loose canadian culture that exists which we somewhat dragged the first nations into.. it's hard to deny that.

I do deny that.

Natives with a band card, pay no taxes, get free education, retain all their spiritual rights, hunting rights, if anything we're TOO relaxed about who gets all of the benefits.

I know people who found out, pretty much at random, that they were a minuscule percent native, but just enough to qualify for band status. They don't even know what tribe they are from, have taken part in absolutely zero aspects of native culture, and still reap all the benefits.

[kommisar]

Re: assimilation

we took their land!!!!!!


Assimilation is the most discussed topic in french schools here. They're deathily afraid we're going to lose our language because of the english majority, and nearly antagonize the english as a result. It's really annoying.

What's the point of learning english if you're just going to avoid them and be a bitch when people can't serve you in french? I don't really get it. Preserving the language is fine, but anti-english propaganda in schools is really not the way to go. The principal at my high school was basically suggesting we boycott businesses that don't have staff that can serve you in french (there aren't very many anyways but whatev).

I can speak both French and English fluently. I'm not playing the victim card saying "I was forced to learn english in school for 5 years!!!". Yeah, sure. I could be that french asshole and decide not to learn English and be pretty much useless anywhere except Quebec. But knowing two languages is to my advantage. I can now communicate with an extra 70% of the country!! WHAT A CONCEPT.

[massflavour]

Re: assimilation

devonin: i would agree that the ability to claim band status is somewhat absurd but hey we fucked their culture in the ass for awhile, regardless of whether there really is a distinct canadian culture or not that our forefathers attempted to instill in them (or didn't, it was definitely more about spirituality and religion). it's tuff to deny that religion doesn't have an influence on whatever loosy goose culture we have.

kommi: i'm pretty much fluent in french now just filling in the gaps and i would agree with you entirely.. i wasn't in immersion tho, i mostly speak france-french

[Cavernio]

Re: assimilation

Laws and regulations don't mean culture, and french canadians who are scared their going to not exist in a few generations see that and are furtively trying to prevent that from happening.
I think that there exist people who are barely native who claim legal native status, yet who don't know shit about the native culture are examples of how assimilated aboriginals have become. If aboriginals had a strong cultural influence, or were an influential part of canada's multiculturalism, then someone with a grandparent or great grandparent who were native would have proudly been passed down native values, rituals, beliefs, stories, etc.

I do think that over time it is inevitable that change occurs. All we have to do is think about how much we know about previous cultures that have come and gone. Eg: How similar is current greece to ancient greece? Granted that's millenia ago, but still.
I don't think that we can simply say something like 'oh computers aren't what I'm talking about here', because technology plays a HUGE role in culture. You don't need to have one culture try and take over another in order for there to be a complete overhaul of values. Furthermore, anything that I can think of where cultures have changed (possibly to the point of assimilation) for a good many people involve technological changes. Like europeans coming to settle in North America.

So yeah, I don't think you're going to find a good cut and dry answer to the question without involving 'computers'. Computerization has changed global culture via communication to a point of no return.

I wish I knew more about previous cultures so that I could give you examples of ones that no longer exist, but of course, that's part of the problem...if a culture is well and truly dead then no one would have passed down that culture's values, and in a couple generations, that culture would be totally lost unless we unearthed relics of that culture and someone were to think that they might be worth keeping. And even then, relics that represent things like ritual and culture and beliefs aren't easy to come by. Most of it's speculation, and the stuff that isn't revolves around how technologically advanced whatever relic was found.

I totally believe there's been cultural assimilation in humanity's past. I just don't know what it is :-p

Perhaps with technology as it is right now, we'll be able to keep track of history better.

[popsicle_3000]

Re: assimilation

Canada has and still has made far too many concessions to Natives to ever claim to be trying to assimilate them into Canadian culture.

Australia has done the exact same thing

although australia has more of a culture: rugby, cricket, surf, etc...

[Pseudo Enigma]

Re: assimilation

It's not like Mass Assimilation is always unnecessary.
Think of it this way, you have two gears that need to do the same thing. You put them together right? Now they're part of a machine working for the same purpose.

When we have an assimilated population that doesn't want to work together they split usually. Think of Korea, they split up because they couldn't work together-- like two gears that don't fit together.

I don't really have much time to talk about this right now, but I thought I would throw that little idea in there. Sorry if it's a little raw.

[kommisar]

Re: assimilation

Alternatively in our province, being the only officially bilingual city/province in the country (Moncton, New Brunswick) the english also likes to play their victim card sometimes. They say to get a job, you're more or less forced to learn french. Well what employer wouldn't want to maximize their potential clientele? It's a business decision, not a political one. The government can't always tell employers how to hire their staff or meet their requirements. But whatever. We were "forced" to learn english to get a job IN ANYTHING by taking it in high school. So using that argument is complete bullshit.

Though to be fair, in any work place I think as long as you have one bilingual person on staff, it shouldn't jeopardize your chances of getting a job. But like with anything else, a person with more qualifications whether it be experience or education will probably get it. If I apply for a job in Asia and can speak both Mandarin and English fluently you can be sure as fuck people would be jumping on me to offer a job. Do they talk about the english stealing their jobs? Not particularly though I'm sure they must think it sometimes.

If it comes to a political decision, then yes, everything SHOULD be bilingual. I don't care if only 2 people in the whole province speak French, any legal document should be bilingual. This country is bilingual. That's all there is to it. If your business doesn't want to serve in French, you have every right to do so. If you open up a business in North Vancouver and your staff speaks Mandarin and English but not French that's perfectly normal; nobody speaks French in North Vancouver. But if I were to open up a shop in Dieppe and didn't serve anyone in French, well they would probably boycott my business and I wouldn't be making any profits lmao.


So when it comes to bilingualism, political and business decisions should be kept separate. The government has no business telling an employer how to serve their customers.

[massflavour]

Re: assimilation

hey guys i emailed maddox and this is his opinion:

"Not all native cultures have been assimilated, only the ones who
couldn't defend themselves. Had the Native Americans and Aboriginals
been a more advanced society, they might have been better equipped to
fend their land from the invaders. If you think about it, every
civilization that exists or has existed on Earth was at one point a
"native" to the land it resided in (for example, US born citizens are
now considered native to the US, even though our ancestors were not).
Why isn't France's native population at risk of being assimilated? Or
Italy's? Their biggest risk to these countries is cultural
imperialism, not geopolitical.

[email protected]"

lol