The New "Religion"

[Privateer]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anybody's point, but he was basically trying to say that if it is her fault that she got pregnant, why doesn't God do something about it?\

Again, I'm a neutral reader.

[IronMonk]

to argue gods side

let me ask you something, if dark didnt exist, would you know what light was? if red didnt exist woudl you know what orange was? to argue against your point, assuming god was the creator of all life, and infinatly loving and such, there would have to be bad in teh world to recognise the good.

Do you enjoy Freedom?

without bad, there is no Freedom. if every person went about their lives doing only good then there is no choice.



to argue against god.

firstly whoever quoted st. aquinas you have altered his text considderably.

here is largly unedited version of aquinases first truth

The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e., that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

now after you read that, ask one simple question and it all falls apart

"who/what put god in motion?"

for a more indepth explanation of a possible explanation of god look at my post under chances of you happeneing.

[Laharl]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anybody's point, but he was basically trying to say that if it is her fault that she got pregnant, why doesn't God do something about it?\

Again, I'm a neutral reader.

Even in the Bible, God never did any sort of divine intervention like that. If people were going to screw up, God let them. It is their own fault.

I am of the belief God is kind of fed up with humanity right now and doesn't feel like causing something like the flood that covered the earth with Noah because there wouldn't be a point to it. He's just waiting until the time is right to send Jesus back down again. You know, the whole book of Revelations bit.

[Specforces]

I shall start with the five classic proofs for the existence of God..by St. Thomas Aquanis.

1. First Mover...everything is in motion so something must have set it all in motion..an unmoved Prime Mover.
2. First Cause
3. Neccessary Being..all things in the Universe are contingent upon something. Ultimate source of all contingencies...God.
4. Greatest Being...you cannot think of anyting greater than God.
5. Intelligent Design.


and here's another proof.

Values exist in the world...(they tell us for instance that is wrong to kill little babies), but they are not in the world, say in the same way as a table or a chair. By definition then, they must come from outside the world/Universe....what is the only thing outside the Universe..God.

Let the Games begin...

[SephirothFF7]

Religion is the ultimate and oldest form of control. By getting followers to your religion you can bend and twist them in any way you want to suit your wants or needs. That's why all religion is bullsh!t

[Specforces]

Right, I've stated that before, I'm just giving arguements for both sides, religion was created by elitist philosophers to control the idiot masses. It evolved into the Church, which controlled the serfs during the middle ages, kept them from uprising, gave them some sort of "hope." That if they were to follow what their masters said, they would reach the eternal paradise.

*EDIT*My posts are now 666. Hmm interesting considering this was the post before it.

[IronMonk]

interesting thing about aquinas. he lived in i believe 1200-1300 somwere in there. but if you read his actual writing it was very very very very overly complex for anyone not highly educated. now how many people would be intelegent enough to understand what he had written? also all of his arguments can be summed up really easily, (as has been done several times in this thread) so why would he make it so complex that no one could argue against it? the reason is, he knew he couldnt possibly argue for it if someone actually took the time to understand it.

[Laharl]

Religion is the ultimate and oldest form of control. By getting followers to your religion you can bend and twist them in any way you want to suit your wants or needs. That's why all religion is bullsh!t

Why do I get the feeling that 95% of the people that have posted in this thread haven't read the first post?

I'm pretty sure this has been covered MULTIPLE times in this thread.

[IronMonk]

because people are by their very nature lazy and more importantly need to feel intelegent.

[jewpinthethird]

You know what. The Bible is really interesting. There are a lot of cool things to quote like: "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending...which is, and which was, and which is to come..." I am going to say that next time right before I do something cool while wearing knee pads.

I hope that the apocolypse takes place during my life time so that I can see it. That would be a pretty cool sight, maybe even a Kodak moment.

I realize that arguing over religion is pointless. All it does is cause more arguing. And only when Judgement Day comes (if it ever comes) will the fighting stop.

About that "Gay rights verses Adulterers" thing. People have a real problem with Homosexuals (many religious folk) because it is so "immoral", but Adulterers...meh, no one really cares. But the bibles says to hate both equally (by killing them, if you dont believe me, look it up: Leviticus 20:10 and 20:13).

But Life is short. Stop flipping out over the little things. Religious folk arent dumb because they believe in a higher being, just as agnostic and atheist folk arent dumb for not believing in God.

"God gave us the freedom of choice" right? Well, then my choice is not to acknowledge him without evidence of his existence. And so it was.

[/i]

[Laharl]

because people are by their very nature lazy and more importantly need to feel intelegent.

*intelligent

[Anonymous]

I decided to go with my own personal religion . Basically I believe that no one knows if there is a god or not (after 2000 years or so of chinese whispers with many personal agendas), there are too many scientific things that make the idea of a god rediculous and too many things where a god seems to be the only explanation (like the existance of anything/everything). So I choose to live as a good person, let people believe what they want to believe (so long as it doesn't affect others negatively), and see what happens at the end.

On a side note, I went to christian schools (since they were better than the public schools in the area), and I think they fill kids' heads with ideas well before they are capable of comprehending them, let alone capable of making their own decisions. However I assume deeply religious parents believe their kids are being taught 'the truth' and so there is no issue. So people want to run religious schools, there's no reason to stop them.

[Anonymous]

Spread the respect

Specforces, dude I have a TON of respect for you. You have actually looked at both sides, and then made a rational decision. That's what drives me crazy about people who just say I'm stupid for believing in God.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anybody's point, but he was basically trying to say that if it is her fault that she got pregnant, why doesn't God do something about it?\

You need to take responsibility for your actions. If God just let everyone do whatever they wanted, then FIXed it all instantly, what would be the point in doing anything good or moral?

"who/what put god in motion?"

You are using the theories ov evolution to disprove God.

If God is all powerful, he doesn't NEED any friggin push!

Here is one tiny little thing that could ultametly prove the existance of an intelligent creator (well, maybe not)...

According to science, in the beginning, there was this friggin big ball of Hydrogen. I don't know how it got there, but we'll continue. Then it just explodes. BOOM! and from there on Science has made a pretty good case for itself. But I have 2 questions.

1. Where did the hydrogen come from? (Not what is it made of? cause it's made of an electron, and a proton, and those are made of qwarks(sp?) and so on. I asking where did the matter come from in the first place?)

2. How did it form a ball??? Cause something had to set it in motion. And It couldn't just explode without motion (because it would have already exploded, follow me?)

But I don't really want to prove religion to anyone. Seriously. I've been discussing why I believe, but you gotta make the decision yourself. According to what I believe, God gives us all the choice. Now if there was absolute proof that God existed, where would the choice be? You would have to be a fool not to accept his existance. Thats why we have a choice. God created logical explinations both for, and against the him.

Well as The Matrix says...

"I can only show you the door, you're the one that has to open it"

I think I'm going to be done posting on this thread, but If you have ANY questions at all (about anything I said, or about becoming a christian), please send me an e-mail...

[email protected]

[SotN]

I shall start with the five classic proofs for the existence of God..by St. Thomas Aquanis.

1. First Mover...everything is in motion so something must have set it all in motion..an unmoved Prime Mover.
2. First Cause
3. Neccessary Being..all things in the Universe are contingent upon something. Ultimate source of all contingencies...God.
4. Greatest Being...you cannot think of anyting greater than God.
5. Intelligent Design.
Let the Games begin...

Isnt the "unmoved mover" thing Plato's idea? Dosent really matter, I guess. The arguement is still valid.

To play devil's advocate, quantum theory states taht everything is unstable, even nothingness. This is possible, however impossible it sounds.

Religous schools are fairly hit or miss. If they have teachers that actually care, then the arguement for God will be presented to them as an arguement and not some crap read out of a textbook.

Oh, and here's a little known catholic theory (isnt that a funny phrase? religious theory). When we meet God when we die, he does not judge us. We accept Him and enter Heaven or we retreat to hell away from God because we cannot face Him because of the guilt of the sins we committed.

[perfect_fat]

I think that the entire idea of time is stopping us from understanding the universe. Maybe there is no beginning and no end to anything. We all assume that everything has a begining and end because everything around us does, and it's logical to apply that to everything else. But there is no reason why the universe could not have always existed, and always will.

Or perhaps our entire universe is nothing but an electron of an atom that is part of a molecule that is part of a monkeys finger that is scratching his but right now.