Zomg English Essay?

[zhul4nder]

Re: Zomg English Essay?

then rephrase that as a hypothetical situation...

your quarter, nickle, dollar, whatever amount when put into use, will save the child if put in research/better care and facilities.

your [money] will save either the African child miles and miles away or the child dying in front of you.

[devonin]

Re: Zomg English Essay?

Why should I objectively assign larger value to something that is physically near me? Suffering is suffering, death is death. The only reason you pick the one in front of you is because -you- would personally react negatively to seeing a child die in front of you.

Argument from Consequences -5 points.

[zhul4nder]

Re: Zomg English Essay?

People aren't machines. Emotion plays a great role in decisions than does logic. My assumption is that you have a family. You assign the people in your family a "larger value" than another person.

-and even if you saw each child as an equal death, the one that would be of larger significance to -you- would be the child closest to you anyways...
why? Their survival will impact the society around -you-


"family first"- so generations upon generations have been honoring a code that has been faulty all this time? absurd!

Emotion is the key factor that logic doesn't compute.
That's why I hate persuasion

[devonin]

Re: Zomg English Essay?

People aren't machines. Emotion plays a great role in decisions than does logic. My assumption is that you have a family. You assign the people in your family a "larger value" than another person.

To assign people a value that makes them "better" than someone else is horrendous and terrible. Nothing makes someone -better- than someone else. People you care about and are close to are -more important- to you than strangers, but that gives you no right whatsoever to value strangers as intrinsically "worse" than others.

If someone you loved was going to die, and the only way to save them was to kill a stranger (Say, so you could harvest organs or something) would you say that was something you'd do? It's a stranger versus someone you care about, but no, that isn't something you can advocate because the two people are still -equals- even if you have less invested in the welfare of the other one.

"family first"- so generations upon generations have been honoring a code that has been faulty all this time? absurd!

The right to swing your arm stops where my face starts. Just because you have more invested in the welfare of one person doesn't make them more -deserving- of welfare than someone else, it just makes them someone you are more inclined to apply effort into assuring the well-being of.

[zhul4nder]

Re: Zomg English Essay?

To assign people a value that makes them "better" than someone else is horrendous and terrible. Nothing makes someone -better- than someone else. People you care about and are close to are -more important- to you than strangers, but that gives you no right whatsoever to value strangers as intrinsically "worse" than others.

since when did value mean better? What are your definitions of value? You assume that value is a hierarchy of tiers. value can also mean other ways of showing affection.

To assign one a "value" does not necessarily mean to demote another status.
Because I value George Bush makes all who are not him inferior. I value him as a leader. But at the same time i "value" my mother as my caretaker. I do not value each other inferior to the other.

I value the child dying next to me rather than to value something that holds next to no significance to me, the dying child in Africa.





If someone you loved was going to die, and the only way to save them was to kill a stranger (Say, so you could harvest organs or something) would you say that was something you'd do? It's a stranger versus someone you care about, but no, that isn't something you can advocate because the two people are still -equals- even if you have less invested in the welfare of the other one.

But would you give your own organs, say a kidney, to your family or a complete stranger given that all other factors are taken care of?


does not apply to the argument
You're situation implies that I make my decision based solely on emotion, because i "love" this person.
My situation implies no relationship with either of the two children, only the fact that one will benefit the people around me more than the other.




The right to swing your arm stops where my face starts. Just because you have more invested in the welfare of one person doesn't make them more -deserving- of welfare than someone else, it just makes them someone you are more inclined to apply effort into assuring the well-being of.


And being "more inclined to apply effort into assuring the well-being of" the entire psychology behind the logic? The attachment to family derives from this notion of parental investment. Why do mothers protect their children so aggressively?
It is instinct more than emotion that drives people to choose their family over strangers.

now it is the argument between
Logic vs. Natural Instinct

[ShastaTwist]

Re: Zomg English Essay?

hence : rought draft, and MY view on America

A) umm...too off topic to be in essay...homeless people use money to buy toast? what a revelation isn't it?


B)the problem lies in that fact that there aren't enough shelters for the homeless to sleep in...if there were, why would there be homeLESS people wandering the streets?


C)Yes, African children are being killed by rebels, and why should America recognize that as a national issue. note that African children are dying, not American.

Let's put this in perspective...you read on the news that an African child is going to be killed today, but you have a child dying in front of you. your quarter, nickle, dollar, whatever amount when put into use, will save the child if put in research/better care and facilities.


you decide who to save.

A.) Homeless people don't have toasters. They might buy bread, but I've never purchased premade toast anywhere except restaurants, and I don't think they're going to restaurants.

B.) As previously mentioned, not all homeless people want the help that shelters offer.

C.) Hello, world peace? It makes our country look better when we help other countries.

Also, it's not like, oh, five African children die a day. It's more like, "Oh, two hundred African people die a day of AIDS, starvation, thirst, brutal beatings, etc." No matter what ethnicity a child is, no matter where the child is from, they are just that... Children. And they deserve a chance. America is trying to give these children in third world countries the chances they deserve and, in some cases, the African children are more grateful for the help.

[devonin]

Re: Zomg English Essay?

zhul4nder, it would be really keen if you threw some quote tags around text that you quoted, it makes it much easier to follow what you're trying to say about what, and to whom.

To assign one a "value" does not necessarily mean to demote another status.

Demoting everyone else, or promoting the one work out to the same thing.

since when did value mean better?

I value the child dying next to me rather than to value something that holds next to no significance to me, the dying child in Africa.

You've -just said- "When I say I value A more than B, I mean that all things being -equal- I would ratherdo things for A than B" Implicit in that attitude is the idea that you find A to be more deserving than B. You're saying, functionally, "The things that I personally value are therefore more important objectively than things I don't personally value" and I find that attitude problematic.

But would you give your own organs, say a kidney, to your family or a complete stranger given that all other factors are taken care of?

That wasn't the question. The question was "Would you kill a stranger so someone you cared about would live"

[ShastaTwist]

Re: Zomg English Essay?

But would you give your own organs, say a kidney, to your family or a complete stranger given that all other factors are taken care of?

When would I ever be in a situation where I would have to choose? This doesn't even relate to the issue at hand. We, as a country, are capable of helping our country and other countries because we are seen as one of the strongest countries on the planet. Therefore, this isn't a matter of, "Should I help the African children or the American children?" but, rather, a matter of, "How can we best manage our resources to obtain a favorable outcome towards both?"

Also, if you're so worried about the homeless situation in America, and assuming you're not already doing this, why don't you go donate clothing to the Salvation Army? Donate money to charities that help the children here? Donate cans to canned food drives across the nation that help the less fortunate children in our country?

The truth is that America is probably one of the best places to even be homeless. The African children have it far worse than the American children do because nearly everyone in Africa is poverty stricken and, thus, cannot help others in their own country. Many people in America have the ability to help the impoverished here and choose not to.

[zhul4nder]

Re: Zomg English Essay?

Demoting everyone else, or promoting the one work out to the same thing.

i don't quite understand what your second clause means. "promoting the one work out to the same thing."


-edit-
ShastaTwist
"When would I ever be in a situation where I would have to choose? This doesn't even relate to the issue at hand."

that was an issue between devonin and me.

"A.) Homeless people don't have toasters. They might buy bread, but I've never purchased premade toast anywhere except restaurants, and I don't think they're going to restaurants.

B.) As previously mentioned, not all homeless people want the help that shelters offer.

C.) Hello, world peace? It makes our country look better when we help other countries.

Also, it's not like, oh, five African children die a day. It's more like, "Oh, two hundred African people die a day of AIDS, starvation, thirst, brutal beatings, etc." No matter what ethnicity a child is, no matter where the child is from, they are just that... Children. And they deserve a chance. America is trying to give these children in third world countries the chances they deserve and, in some cases, the African children are more grateful for the help"



A) ever heard of a super market?...I used the word "toast" as another word for starches, bread, grains..don't take "toast" too literally.

B) not all homeless people are your stereotypical "bum"
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...5BC0A9629C8B63

as an example.

people that are FORCED out of their homes are homeless as well, e.i. Katrina.

C) As i recall, the BRITISH and FRENCH owned a large portion of Africa prior to their independence. Why aren't they stepping up to "save" these people? Are their economies worse off than ours? Currently, the Pound and Euro is over twice and about 1.5 times respectively the American dollar.

Plus, don't you feel that our country is trying to solve too many of the world's problems as once?

Omg! there's oppressive people in Iraq, Iran, AND Afganistan. Look! there's children dying all over the world! Yes, the WORLD.

Another thing about fairness, why only Africa? Since dying children are all over the world, why don't you become a child protection activist and start organizations all over the world? What determines who deserves what treatment? I think that American children deserve it because they directly affect our future. The Africans most likely not during their life times.

your notion about number of children dying of AIDS...devonin CONTRADICTED me to say that a death is a death regardless of the people they are or how many of them die.
A an American death does not equal ten African deaths, nor vice versa. Death = Death.


Too many issues to be solved, only one America. America is NOT as strong as you think it is either...bleh....i don't have time to elaborate. homework calls *sigh*

http://www.shenandoahconnection.com/homelessinamerica.htm

video i found that exemplifies my point

-IF I may seem offensive, these comments really are helping me thanks to all

[ShastaTwist]

Re: Zomg English Essay?

I never said America was strong.

because we are seen as one of the strongest countries on the planet.

[devonin]

Re: Zomg English Essay?

i don't quite understand what your second clause means. "promoting the one work out to the same thing."

Um..."Demoting everyone else, or promoting the one" ... "work out to the same thing."

that was an issue between devonin and me.

Um...I'm with Shasta on this one, I don't see how your example was especially relevant. the phrase "given that all other factors were taken care of" is way too imprecise to result in the kind of question you seem to think you were asking.

Further, you seem to still be missing my point that there is an intrinsic difference between the statement "I value you more than I value someone else" and "You -have- more value than someone else" The latter, which you seemed to be stating with respect to your assigning greater value to people you care about over people you don't know, is terrible. The former, acknowledging that you simply value them personally more than you value someone else you don't know is less problematic but leads into the latter very easily.

That's why I posed the question to you in the way "Would you consign a stranger to die in order to save someone you knew and cared about" since your argument thus far seemed to say "Yes I would"

A) ever heard of a super market?...I used the word "toast" as another word for starches, bread, grains..don't take "toast" too literally.

Mean what you say, and say what you mean. Precision is important. The phrase was fairly absurd and made little sense in the context, and someone called you on it. That happens when you use imprecise language.

B) not all homeless people are your stereotypical "bum"
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...5BC0A9629C8B63
as an example.
people that are FORCED out of their homes are homeless as well, e.i. Katrina.

This didn't really address Shasta's point at all though. She said "Not every homeless person wants to take advantage of shelters" and you responded "There are several kinds of homeless person" So uh...yes...that's exactly what she was saying, not every homeless person is in the same situation, and not all homeless people want to take advantage of homeless shelters...

C) As i recall, the BRITISH and FRENCH owned a large portion of Africa prior to their independence. Why aren't they stepping up to "save" these people? Are their economies worse off than ours? Currently, the Pound and Euro is over twice and about 1.5 times respectively the American dollar.

This from the guy who opened with what an amazing powerhouse of a nation America is. If you're going to say that America isn't economically as strong as other nations, how can you also state that it is at the peak of the world stage and should be dealing with its own more important problems?

That said, there is a point to be made with respect to post-colonial Africa and the European burden there. A writer who is diametrically opposed to me in terms of viewpoint and politics, Mark Steyn wrote an article called "White Man's Burden" basically saying that the mess Africa finds itself in currently is the fault of Europe imposing continental style government on nations who weren't at all set up to support it, and then "granting them independance" to twist in the wind, and that since White Europe was so keen on colonisation, that it was their responsibility to clean up the mess they left behind.

Plus, don't you feel that our country is trying to solve too many of the world's problems as once?

The biggest problem is that America thinks it is the solution to too many of the world's problems.

Another thing about fairness, why only Africa? Since dying children are all over the world, why don't you become a child protection activist and start organizations all over the world?

There are such organizations, and people who don't have the skills or inclination to take part in their operation have many ways to support them. And do.

What determines who deserves what treatment?

Africa has Diamonds. Okay, that was a little facetious I'll grant. A better answer is: Africa as a continent is the largest concentration of humans on earth that are that poor, that struggling with disease, that ripped by internal conflict and that desperately in need of assistance if they are going to be brought to the international standards of life that so much else of the world enjoys. Simple question: "What determines who deserves what treatment?" Simple Answer: The ones who need it the most deserve it the most.

I think that American children deserve it because they directly affect our future. The Africans most likely not during their life times.

I think all children deserve it in equal measure. You help those who can't help themselves. If you decided "Everyone will only help themselves and not lend any hand anywhere to the rest of the world" there will be not a small number of people who have no help at all, quite suddenly. No life is intrinsically more valuable than another. When sacrifice is demanded, some distinction can regrettably be made, but the primary goal should be to avoid that need for sacrifice at all costs. The smallest pittance of the money america wastes for absolutely no reason at all could provide critical aid to many substantially poorer nations. The richest 50 -individual people- in the world are worth more than the poorest 50 -percent of the population- in the world.

your notion about number of children dying of AIDS...devonin CONTRADICTED me to say that a death is a death regardless of the people they are or how many of them die.
A an American death does not equal ten African deaths, nor vice versa. Death = Death.

If Death = Death how can you possibly argue that an american death is -worse- than an african death even if it is a one-to-one ratio? You certainly seem to prefer letting an african die instead of an american, and the amount of money needed to "save" one american actually is pretty close to the amount of money needed to "save" ten african ones.

In Canada, the poverty line for a single male living alone is somewhere in the area of 8,000 dollars per year. In Uganda (since we like to reference Uganda it seems) the average GDP across the entire population is 1,700. So in fact, one person hovering on the poverty line in Canada needs as much money, it seems, as 4 3/4s Ugandans are getting right this minute.

Too many issues to be solved, only one America. America is NOT as strong as you think it is

America, the most powerful country in the world

So you've seen the error of your ways?

[zhul4nder]

zhul4nder - response

This essay was to persuade the reader to believe that America is not focusing on the problems of America itself.

Devonin
" So you've seen the error of your ways?"

Error in other's ways

In my revised version, i included that others viewed America as this powerful nation.

Every time we refer to a stranger vs family type arguement I am irriatated.

A child that is within view...a child in Africa..where does this imply a family member?
Worth? Education in American as you most likely will agree is better than let's say Africa. I know, I said that people of other nations are scoring higher than Americans.
But saving a child in America would lead to a better educational chance of making a difference even though it would make economic sense to invest in 10 for the same price as one. It is the quaility of their environment that depends whether they are "worthy" of being subjected to investment.

To the world , an american investment is far greater potential value than 10 Africans that would just die "AIDS, starvation, thirst, brutal beatings" anyways..


"toast"- since this word is so controversial, would you rather I use...the generic word...food?


""save" one american actually is pretty close to the amount of money needed to "save" ten african ones."
huh? so certain people do have more value than other people?
but isn't this "terrible"...
X = 10 Y
X > Y


"Africa as a continent is the largest concentration of humans on earth that are that poor, that struggling with disease, that ripped by internal conflict and that desperately in need of assistance if they are going to be brought to the international standards of life that so much else of the world enjoys."


And whose fault is this? The Africans were doing fine before the Europeans disrupted their way of life. Why do Americans feel sorry or be responsible for the result of European interferances. Oh because we value others more than OUR people in need? because the these Africans would make better economic sense?



" I think all children deserve it in equal measure"

Should a mentallly normal person be limited the same as someone that is mentally deficient?


crap...i ran out of time

[ShastaTwist]

Re: zhul4nder - response

To the world , an american investment is far greater potential value than 10 Africans that would just die "AIDS, starvation, thirst, brutal beatings" anyways..

That is quite possibly one of the worst things I have ever heard anyone say.

So, a close family member has been diagnosed with cancer, why work on getting them a treatment that probably won't work if they're just going to die anyways? Because it's humane.

Also, who says somebody dying of starvation or thirst will die anyways with proper treatment?

""save" one american actually is pretty close to the amount of money needed to "save" ten african ones."
huh? so certain people do have more value than other people?

American money goes much further in Africa than it does here.

Oh because we value others more than OUR people in need? because the these Africans would make better economic sense?

I'm not sure where you got the idea that we're not helping people in our own country. Food and toy drives, missionaries building homes for people, soup kitchens, charities, the Salvation Army and Goodwill? At Mervyn's, a department store that I work at, we actually hold a drive where we give clothes to children who can't afford their own clothing. (Although I've heard that these kids show up in their Dior sunglasses, I haven't witnessed it.) These are all things people are doing to help the less fortunate.

[devonin]

Re: zhul4nder - response

This essay was to persuade the reader to believe that America is not focusing on the problems of America itself.

Changing your mind and saying things that are demonstrably not the case don't seem like very useful tools of persuasion.

Error in other's ways

No...error in your ways. Since you said one thing, and then later said something different, which I agreed with more, I was inquiring as to whether you had come around to our way of thinking or not.

Every time we refer to a stranger vs family type arguement I am irriatated.

A child that is within view...a child in Africa..where does this imply a family member?

If you can use absurd examples to try and fish for the reaction you want, why can't I propose to you an example that shows the flaw in the reasoning you're trying to use?

Worth? Education in American as you most likely will agree is better than let's say Africa.

Because of the money being spent on education in America. If even a fraction of that amount of money was spent on educating Africans, suddenly the education there wouldn't be quite as bad. You're basically saying "We should help ourselves instead of them because we need less help, so it is easier to succeed."

To the world , an american investment is far greater potential value than 10 Africans that would just die "AIDS, starvation, thirst, brutal beatings" anyways..

To America. Scratch that: To the subset of incredibly arrogant and ignorant americans, an american investment in one person is of greater value than an investment in 10 africans.

"toast"- since this word is so controversial, would you rather I use...the generic word...food?

Yes.

""save" one american actually is pretty close to the amount of money needed to "save" ten african ones."
huh? so certain people do have more value than other people?
but isn't this "terrible"...
X = 10 Y
X > Y

Er...try understanding words instead of just reading them. The amount of money needed to help one American to the standards of the average American is enough money to do the same to 10 people in a substantially poorer nation. Where in there -at all- was there a value judgement?

And whose fault is this? The Africans were doing fine before the Europeans disrupted their way of life. Why do Americans feel sorry or be responsible for the result of European interferances. Oh because we value others more than OUR people in need? because the these Africans would make better economic sense?

Holy **** man. You help people who need help because it is the right thing to do. Helping people because you caused the mess in the first place isn't admirable. I don't admire America when it goes and "liberates" Afghanistan after they personally trained and equipped the party in power there. I don't admire France when they provide aid and assistance to the former colonies in Africa that they screwed over.

What is admirable is when a nation that has plenty aids a nation that desperately needs it -just because that is what nations that have plenty should be doing-

Should a mentallly normal person be limited the same as someone that is mentally deficient?

Be limited the same? I have no idea what you're trying to get at here. If you're fishing for a way to say "If you could only save one person, and one was normally functional and the other was disabled, who would you save?" just say so.

[zhul4nder]

Re: Zomg English Essay?

To both of you..

both of you use too much emotion in your arguments.
What's the deal with you guys and bringing in a close family member into analogies? both are strangers and are judged solely on the information given...So in this case, devonin, a death is a death? I imagine that you would choose niether and let both die? If that's the case, then, YOU are terrible.

--off topic--
I still haven't gotten a response to this analogy yet. Is it because both of you are scared to discard the African or so called close family member? or is it that hard of a decision?

kill one, save the other...
------

Oh noes...Africans are dying left and right...yes yes!! help them because they are dying more...

excuse me? what about your family member?

Sharing your attention towards the African child: you will get a picture of a dying child in Africa.
Sharing your attention towards the American child: you will get to share actual MEMORIES and MOMENTS, two VERY tangible things, with this person.

Shasta, you may see me as an unemotional asshole, but the time I spend with my family member is time spent well.




devonin - you think America is admirable because it's "big brother"?



-devonin-
as much as you'd like you argue...People are in fact objects. Oh because there are more of the African ones means that money should be invested there. That's not a valid reason why one should choose the ten over the one. Would a farmer plant ten seeds in infertile soil, or one seed in fertile? THE FARMER WOULD CHOOSE THE LATTER.

Put your money and time into something that will yield results..

-devonin says that america is doing good in africa because he thinks that it is good for america's reputation.

is that the only reason why? because they want to look good?

well Americans can look just as good if they are economically better than everyone else...

look at Japan, what countries are they helping? yet, Japan is rivaling America in "good image" How is Japan's education compared with the US?


Now i understand why devonin asked for the purpose of the paper.

Just as a reminder, This essay is a highschool paper demonstrating my view on America.

when i stated that the purpose of this essay, it was not meant to be ridiculed...only to restate the topic of this discussion.



My view was initially that America was not focusing on the problems that we have inside our country.