Decline of Language

[who_cares973]

Re: Decline of Language

when it comes to definitely people tend to spell the word how the sound it out which more often than not its nat

[cry4eternity]

Re: Decline of Language

Okay, so obviously there's no immediate crisis of "zomg we don't has smart enuf ppl to flip bergers at teh burger king." That's not exactly what I intended to ask about. I'm also not talking about accidental typos. In fact, for the thread title I actually meant to type "The Decline of Language." To add one more exception, people who don't speak English natively are also excused.

As a few have pointed out, the ignorance I'm referring to is, for the most part, committed unknowingly. We could go on all day about which words and phrases are confused, misspelled, and misused much more commonly than they should be. Actually I came across this video the other day that seems to poke fun at this issue. However, I'm much more interested in a trend I've noticed and one that is now visible even in this thread. Why do people suddenly become agitated whenever poor grammar is pointed out? Is it really too much to ask that native speakers of a language actually understand that language?

[smartdude1212]

Re: Decline of Language

People typically hate to have their erroneous actions be acknowledged. If you point out something wrong that a person behind the wheel does, for example, they're probably going to laugh it off and say "I know" or get pissed off at you for being a purported "know-it-all." They may knowingly go over the speed limit, or unknowingly violate the seemingly lesser-known right-of-way rule in a parking lot, et cetera, but as long as it doesn't affect anybody then they likely aren't going to feel affected by it themselves.

Implicitly, the same could be said for language. They may knowingly abbreviate words on social media sites for brevity and convenience, yet perhaps unknowingly misuse "your" and "you're" because they never understood the difference in school. I'm notorious for pointing out mistakes that people make. The two most common responses are the elongated response of acknowledgement and irritation ("I knoooooooow") and the frustrated response of irritation ("you're a(n) [insert meaningless yet abhorrent phrase here]"). In fact, if I'm not proofreading a written work that is meant to be submitted for grading, I don't think anyone has ever thanked me for correcting their improper usage. If they have, it was laden with sarcasm.

Maybe it's ignorance, or laziness, or downright obduracy. We always seem to be looking for a quicker, more concise way of doing things, and chopping up the English language somehow made its way onto that ever-growing list.

[Izzy]

Re: Decline of Language

I don't have a problem with bad english in an informal anonymous internet way, but when it comes to formal conversation and real life you should know how to spell and use proper grammar. The only way for someone to not know the difference between "affect" and "effect" is if they didn't learn it. To me this indicates an education problem.

I used to not know how to spell "definitely" but now I remember it by breaking it into these three parts

de-finite-ly or de-fini-tely

The first one has the word "Finite" in it, which is how I remember.

[aperson]

Re: Decline of Language

I hardly understand where is the counter-argument in this post, it looks like you thought I was talking about the oral understanding when I was in fact speaking about written mistakes. Anyway, please, explain.

Switching "your" and "you're" is a purely cosmetic error because they have completely separate grammatical functions. It causes no confusion to see them incorrectly because the syntactic structure of a sentence will never be coherent with the wrong one.

Yes. My bad, I was writing too fast, but wasn't "deterioration" the subject instead of "abundance" ? I try to correct every errors I commit because I'm still far from being bilingual.

Technically the subject is the noun phrase "The deterioration of that abundance"

As a few have pointed out, the ignorance I'm referring to is, for the most part, committed unknowingly. We could go on all day about which words and phrases are confused, misspelled, and misused much more commonly than they should be. Actually I came across this video the other day that seems to poke fun at this issue. However, I'm much more interested in a trend I've noticed and one that is now visible even in this thread. Why do people suddenly become agitated whenever poor grammar is pointed out? Is it really too much to ask that native speakers of a language actually understand that language?

For a long time English used to not have a formal set of rules for when to Capitalize Things. There also was no formalized rule of consistent spelling, most people spelled phonetically. Try reading primary sources from the 1500s to late 1700s. This was done because being pedantic about these features wasn't necessary. Everyone knows what you mean if you say "definately". Maybe if I mispelled definitely as "defiantly" you might have a reason to complain.

[~kitty~]

Re: Decline of Language

Personally, I feel less likely to be annoyed by spelling errors and such than I am with grammar errors. When people use "u" instead of "you", and other text shorthand, I get kind of annoyed because it is one of those things that definitely will become a habit, and typing the extra two letters isn't taking up much more time to type if you know how to type. I feel it's easier to type out the word because the shorthand text speaking almost seems like another language to me, and I would have to kind of think about it... which means I'll be taking more time to type out sentences.

The real problem, however, is when there are huge grammatical errors that make statements and stuff highly ambiguous and really hard to understand. I see it a lot on the Internet around here, but I don't think it's that much higher now than it was in the past. I think mostly the trend of spelling and other grammatical errors comes from a sense of conformity when you go onto the Internet. I know when I first joined I didn't spell correctly or use correct grammar mostly intentionally. The Internet was a weird place to me and I felt weird typing out words that others didn't type out, and not using acronyms popular on the Internet. Using the shorthand, for me, was actually a little bit helpful when I first got onto the Internet because I didn't actually know how to type, so I had a little bit of an excuse.

That's what I think...

[ffraxis]

Re: Decline of Language

its not the decline of language, is the decline of the education system (public) and the rise of the aristocrat.

its also the decline of public concern for morals and the rise of what could be a polluted society. thinking is being replaced by concerns of the self; a rise in the ego; where the only person who matters is "I". that being said, if you can take time out of your day to stop, relax, and think about things outside your daily routine or life, a tip of my hat to you sir/madam.

[Plasma King N]

Re: Decline of Language

I really do love correct grammar and spelling. It seems as though to this day, that people who know English but speak other languages better have a better sense of Englis grammar than the English people themselves!

I have a theory as to why this is true. when you get taught a foreign language, you learn it wih all the correct grammatical rules, and to learn a second language is hard enough, so you do not have the time to "modify" it for efficiency: you simply remember the rules, until they're in your head for life.

But when people speak they're own language, they know it too well. They can think of ways to talk to people faster, and even twist the rules a bit just so that they sound "cooler", such as by saying "there ain't nothing you can do about it", but contrary to the implied meaning of the sentence, the actual meaning is positive Meaning "there is something you can do about it".

This usually affects the younger generation because they are generally lazy, but the trend catches on, and it has an effect on everyone else, including the adults, who therefore start using "slang" until there are a picky few (such as me, and the Topic starter) left who want to speak properly.

This theory also covers why decline in the use of punctuation occurs: punctuation is seen as suc a small matter of insignificance that people are too lazy to simply put a dot next to the sentence they write, or a question mark, or *insert punctuation here*, you get the picture.

[dore]

Re: Decline of Language

I don't see a huge problem with text-speak and that sort of stuff, because we have always found ways to abbreviate and simplify things for the sake of composition. It's natural to want to compose faster, because otherwise your mind will go ahead of your typing/writing and then you have the possibility of omitting something or some other error like that. I don't see why people are persnickety about that sort of thing, because I think that most people have the ability (assuming they are taught well in school, which is a bit of a dubious assumption currently but I don't think is too idealistic) to turn off that instinct. Just like I use profanity in my everyday speaking and use a little bit of an accent and a lot of slang, but I can turn that all off in situations where propriety is a little more of an issue.

There's nothing wrong with slang. That's how new languages are born. But I think (and this is the responsibility of schools, students, and parents) that everyone should have a solid understanding of proper written English (or whatever language) so that they are able to write intelligently, comfortably, and convincingly in their own voice, because it's really easy to tell when you read something by someone who doesn't have that skill in composition.

[Van T]

Re: Decline of Language

Personally, I never understood mixing up 'your' and 'you're' except to be cute online

Then again, I adapt grammar to suit my tone. I hardly ever use commas where they should be because I hardly ever pause when I'm speaking. If there's a break in my speech I'll include a comma but otherwise I see it as plodding and extraneous. The most important thing is to be understood and that generally means avoiding esoteric vocabulary and giving some pity punctuation once in a while
It's all a question of tone, anyway. Hell, I'll coin words if it suits my need--language is by no means meant to be stagnant. And typing differently gives different tones, just as inflection does the same when speaking.

tl;dr Typing with correct grammar and polysyllabic expressions immediately gives the impression that you're serious.
typin like this tells people you dont give two shits

[Mechablob]

Re: Decline of Language

I remember I used to sort of consider it as a simple change that language may take over the decades. What I mean there is that, well, over decades, colloquialisms change and language in general seems to make changes over centuries (we definitely speak differently to what was recorded in the 1800s). I used to consider this until I actually started taking the A level English language course and I realised people seemed to make these simple spelling and grammatical mistakes a lot in the class, which sort of surprised me that such ignorance in language was not a barrier for people selecting the course to study.

It's a bit peculiar to think that the informalities in language a century or so ago would seem the utmost of formalities nowadays. I can understand if it's a simple spelling mistake every now and again, be it online or on paper - we're all human and we all make mistakes. If the same mistake is continued to be, though, then it's just plain ignorance. I think we may just be living in more ignorant times, but we should not really blame the ignorant for this, but maybe those that have made our lives more convenient and easier to manage - we have become so used to being dependent now.

[Vendetta21]

Re: Decline of Language

Man that Chaucer sure was an annoying twat he barely spells anything right how frustrating

Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
5 Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
10 That slepen al the nyght with open eye-
(So priketh hem Nature in hir corages);
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
15 And specially from every shires ende
Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
The hooly blisful martir for to seke
That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seeke.
Bifil that in that seson, on a day,
20 In Southwerk at the Tabard as I lay
Redy to wenden on my pilgrymage
To Caunterbury with ful devout corage,
At nyght was come into that hostelrye
Wel nyne and twenty in a compaignye
25 Of sondry folk, by aventure yfalle
In felaweshipe, and pilgrimes were they alle,
That toward Caunterbury wolden ryde.
The chambres and the stables weren wyde,
And wel we weren esed atte beste;
30 And shortly, whan the sonne was to reste,
So hadde I spoken with hem everichon
That I was of hir felaweshipe anon,
And made forward erly for to ryse
To take our wey, ther as I yow devyse.
35 But nathelees, whil I have tyme and space,
Er that I ferther in this tale pace,
Me thynketh it acordaunt to resoun
To telle yow al the condicioun
Of ech of hem, so as it semed me,
40 And whiche they weren, and of what degree,
And eek in what array that they were inne;
And at a knyght than wol I first bigynne.
A KNYGHT ther was, and that a worthy man,
That fro the tyme that he first bigan
45 To riden out, he loved chivalrie,
Trouthe and honour, fredom and curteisie.
Ful worthy was he in his lordes werre,
And therto hadde he riden, no man ferre,
As wel in cristendom as in hethenesse,
50 And evere honoured for his worthynesse.

[Cavernio]

Re: Decline of Language

"There is no "literal interpretation" of a double negative because double negatives aren't valid in our grammar. You could argue by saying "Negation in language is like multiplying by -1" or something like that, but then you are still invoking something outside of our grammar."

I beg to differ; if someone uses it, and people understand it, no matter even if its specifically contradictory to the 'official' grammatical rules, it is grammar. Grammar evolves and is made by the people using it, not put upon on us by the educated.

However, the initiation of the thread wasn't seemingly about grammar, but about using the wrong word in the wrong place, and not having people care about it. The problem with things like your and you're and two too to are very specific; the words are pronounced the exact same way. If there's a failing in the human language, its the fact that for someone reason we have common words that means different things, and are pronounced the same, but are spelled totally different. The fact that many of the issues stem from conjoint words, like you're, it's and they're, also seems to be a failing of the language which was developed before cellphones and text-editors. I remember learning in grade school that using 'you're' in an essay was wrong even if you used it correctly, because you should've use 'you are' instead. And now apparently people here, in this thread, have forgotten or were just never taught that contractions themselves are examples of 'poor' language. Which I also find pretty neat, because in no other language do I know of contractions being used in any formality. I don't find it at all surprising that someone who learns english as a second language learns the proper grammar and uses it better than someone who doesn't; it works that way for all languages, doesn't it? I can speak and write french alright, and if you speak to me I can understand it pretty good, and I've even read a couple novels in french. I stumbled into a french chatroom before, and I was totally unable to understand most things said. I feel like my sense of the language is far from 'better' than those people in that chatroom; instead I feel cheated that I can't understand them.

As to the idea that the simplifying and shortening of our language that's happened, I would say that that's largely happened as a result of technology, not the other way around. Being able to write to someone in real-time, we want to communicate as fast as we do when we speak, so we take as many shortcuts as we possibly can. This effect can only be confounded when the communication uses our hands, which we're used to having free to do other things which we talk. I know all my posts are mammoth in size, but you chat with me, and I will be quick and dirty and not bother to correct your and you're, much less most of my other spelling.

And lastly, even if this does mean that overall the language may be in some state of decline on some level, I sincerely doubt its because people are dumber. I think its likely just the opposite in fact. Back in the day, when leaving school when you were 10 to go and help your dad or whatever you have to do, and you didn't learn to read and write very well, or you never even went to school and learned anything...well those people weren't even part of the group of readers and writers. Today, with the number of literate people we have (or semi-literate if you want to call them), who all have a cellphone, who all have the internet, and who all communicate in writing using the technology we have, of course the written language is going to change much differently than if only a highly educated clique uses it.


And what Vendetta said. We all just sorta assume that things were different back in the day, whenever that day was...

[Cavernio]

Re: Decline of Language

As an aside, english is notoriously bad for spelling. Its so bad that studies have found that people who are english speakers are more likely to have dyslexia than people who speak italian and spanish. (Or at least less likely to be diagnosed, which is in a sense in this case, the same thing, since reading is perhaps the most prominent problem a dyslexic has.) Finetik is definitely the way to go.

[dore]

Re: Decline of Language

Which I also find pretty neat, because in no other language do I know of contractions being used in any formality.

just a couple examples that I know where contractions are ubiquitous even in writing

Spanish -- a el -> al, de el -> del
German -- in dem -> im which applies to some other prepositions too