The Ideal Government

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  • ffraxis
    FFR Player
    • Jul 2006
    • 114

    #16
    Re: The Ideal Government

    Money is an absolute matter. Human is not.
    Moreover, it doesn't work like that, doing such a thing will inevitably end in a high imbalance, like one of my friend said, Marx wrote an utopist fiction, sure it was intelligent, but it could never be adapted in the reality. Don't try to fight fire by using a blowtorch, the fact the flame is different doesn't mean it isn't fire. It's why e based our system on a stable and "total" idea : money.



    The current "capitalist" society runs on debt, not money. Eventually it will crash.
    Also utopist is not a real word.


    "But the problem isn't about the world being "smaller" because the distance between each human being have been rigorously reducted. All is about quantity of the population. Communism can only work between people that believe in the same thing, it's why it needs censor and propaganda to keep being "working" with a such quantity of humans.

    As long as a system needs to "maintain" the thoughts of its citizens, the system is reprehensible."


    The same thing applies to all forms of government policies and ideas. Although you tend to believe you may have the right to "freedom of speech", that is a gross illusion.




    "Wrong. In a communist system, the only source of power is in the government hands. Just go visit North Korea, and tell me if you think the people out there have a power on their government. They're handled like machines by the state, it's perfectly immoral. Anarchy hasn't any state (well, from there, you can say the state is in each person), but Communism has one. Otherwise, they wouldn't have any leader."



    No in an actual Marx based utopian communist society it would revolve around public demand, not politicians placing their own rules and laws, as well as ruling with "power". It would be considered living truly at peace with little to no conflicts, and the conflicts are often minor.

    North Korea is a dictatorship. A dictatorship/totalitarian society is not communism. If it were, then the so-called head of state would only be allowed to the same privileges as everyone else, the same pay, house, food, access to resources.



    "Uh.. Sounds like democracy to me. Except in democracy, the maximum of people can live according to his needs and lead their life like they want to, they are free."


    Nobody is ever free. That is another illusion. You are expected to endure responsibilities. In communism this is more enforced and hence, rejected since people wish to do whatever they want, in any form of government except in a state of anarchy. There you work by yourself and perhaps the help of others (if they want to) to live. Eventually the state of anarchy will actually become conservative and start changing and becoming more organized, or the state of anarchy will crash.




    "Just think about something : This is utopist. You could never introduce the absolute of equality in a human system that isn't made to carry it. The human being needs poorer people than him so he can live.
    Look at ants, they can perfectly live with a mechanic system like that, ants are communist. But why are they living in this system without any problem ? Because they aren't aware of themselves. They can't put anything in question. They aren't irregular in themselves. They just do what they have to do because they can't do anything else."




    Not true at all. If the concept of a regulated currency was abolished then there would be no "poor" people. There would just be the people who work and those who don't work. There does not need to be someone who is lacking funds in order to sustain their life in order to support the upper classes. This is one big problem that has occurred in capitalism due to the fact that the opportunity to gain was exploited by individuals so suddenly the masses are now stuck where they are. The class system was changed from "royalty" to "wealthy" with only a handful of individuals controlling most of the populace, and also trying to change the opinions of the populace.

    Ants are not communist. They are aware of themselves, all organisms to some degree are aware of their own existence, otherwise they would have no will and would die off quickly.
    Ants work to live like all creatures, and because ants do not have to worry about doing anything else other than to live and sustain their species like all organisms (all organisms came from bacteria or single-celled organisms that multiplied in order to live, this would suggest that we, as humans, are the last evolved forms of bacteria, explaining the need to take over and live as the individual wants to). As a side note, ant colonies, along with bee colonies work under the direction of a queen.
    Last edited by ffraxis; 01-14-2011, 04:21 PM.

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    • RB_Dreamscanner
      ☭Retired Top One Hander☭
      • Nov 2006
      • 1789

      #17
      Re: The Ideal Government

      Originally posted by ScylaX


      Wrong. In a communist system, the only source of power is in the government hands. Just go visit North Korea, and tell me if you think the people out there have a power on their government. They're handled like machines by the state, it's perfectly immoral. Anarchy hasn't any state (well, from there, you can say the state is in each person), but Communism has one. Otherwise, they wouldn't have any leader.


      Argument: Communism has proven time and time against to result in oppression and failure- just look at the Soviet Union and North Korea.

      Counter-Argument: These are not Communist countries but Socialist dictatorships which claim to be Communist, in much the same way that Batista (a dictator) masqueraded as a democratically elected leader. Communism is no more responsible for the atrocities committed by Stalin than Jesus is for the horrors of the Spanish Inquisition.


      North Korea is a pathetic excuse for Marx-Lenin communism [The one i stated i support, i do NOT support Stalinism, Totalitarianism, or Maoism.] I just support certain aspects of A Stalinist government because it still did hold on to certain aspects of Marx's ideas. I'll reply more when i'm not on itouch
      "The Communist vision is the vision of man without God"



      Retired, Finished at rank 295, Top one hander on FFR

      Comment

      • Without A Contraceptive
        FFR Player
        • Mar 2007
        • 212

        #18
        Re: The Ideal Government

        i guess youll never understand how evil "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" really is

        i guess my post got deleted for some reason but

        if everyone is working for others "needs", those with the "ability" will eventually disappear. everyone will eventually "need" more and you will have a run down society of incompetents demanding the help of those that are competent.

        Comment

        • justaguy
          Forum User
          FFR Simfile Author
          • Mar 2004
          • 3566

          #19
          Re: The Ideal Government

          ok sorry i couldn't help myself this is depressing

          Originally posted by RB_Dreamscanner
          Human Nature (1)

          Argument: Communism cannot work, because Humans are inherently evil.

          Counter-Argument: Communism does not and can not function on the idea that humans are perfectible, otherwise there would be no need for Communism.
          thanks for not really replying to what anyone said but just setting up straw man arguments to attack that no one made. but still, ill humor you by pointing out how bad your counter-arguments are:

          Whoa, irrelevant as hell. No one is saying Communism functions on the idea that humans are perfectible. They are saying one specific human imperfection is a fundamental problem to your system. this is a VERY evasive answer and doesn't really say any significant. We are not saying we want Communism to perfect humanity in all aspects, we are saying that humans imperfect in goodness will cause Communism to fail.

          Human Nature (2)

          Argument: Capitalism is a better system than Communism, since Capitalism is based off of human (fallen) nature.

          Counter-Argument: If we set up a socio-economic system based on humanity’s inherent greed, then why don’t we set up a legal system based on humanity’s murderous, thieving, and destructive disposition. If human nature is basically flawed, then how can we not expect an economic system based on human nature to be flawed as well?
          because it is not human nature to be murderous and destructive - at least, what you're implying through the use of that expression.

          Murder and destruction do occur - no one will deny that. But they are not the result of our nature, which evolved many behaviors that are relatively peaceful, although egoistically motivated; reciprocal altruism, etc.

          Of course the context in which we are, one of scarcity and global limitations, will cause many wars and violence to occur - but you really can't attribute these to our programming as much as our environment. I submit that if you placed humanity in an environment where scarcity was not an issue, things would be comparatively much more peaceful.

          And that is what at least semi free market/centrist try to resolve; the basic environmental issues that result in murder and destruction. Capitalism, to an extent, understands that we will never be able to attain the utopia that Communism attempts to achieve, because the environment inherently restricts that attempt.[/quote]

          Historic Precedent

          Argument: Communism has proven time and time against to result in oppression and failure- just look at the Soviet Union and North Korea.

          Counter-Argument: These are not Communist countries but Socialist dictatorships which claim to be Communist, in much the same way that Batista (a dictator) masqueraded as a democratically elected leader. Communism is no more responsible for the atrocities committed by Stalin than Jesus is for the horrors of the Spanish Inquisition.
          One could just as easily (and probably more accurately) assert that These are not Communist countries but the inevitable (or at least probable) range of results that arise from attempting Communism. Which one do we believe? On the one hand, we have plenty of empirical evidence that Capitalism is at least a semi-stable economy, in the long run, whereas we have none for Communism, and, if we discount your argument in the first place, evidence to assert the contrary for Communism.

          Religious Issues (1)

          Argument: Communism cannot work because it is godless- it denies any role of religion within the government.

          Counter-Argument: Depending on your religion, one might also be able to call the Greek, Roman, and Mongolian Empires “godless”. Even the US has no state religion, yet it- like the empires of Greece and Rome- is generally productive, prosperous, and free.
          No one argued this and I promise you almost no one here would. This is just makes your strawman painfully obvious...

          Religious Issues (2)

          Argument: Communism cannot work because it is godless- there are no moral restrictions placed upon the public and/or government.

          Counter-Argument: The lack of a “religion” does not mean the lack of ethic or moral values. The Russian Revolution was generally atheistic, yet the revolutionaries were driven by a sense of social justice. Besides, countries which do have religion (either in the sense that religion is present or that religion plays a role in the government) have not been stopped from committing atrocities such as the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII or the Crusades and witch hunts…
          Repeat DON'T CARE

          Size Problems

          Argument: Communism can only work in small communities and cannot be applied to nations and states.

          Counter-Argument: Firstly, the world is a smaller place than it was fifty years ago. With advances in technology, communication and transportation are incredibly easy, making it easier to manage massive areas with ease. Secondly, humans don’t need massive states to live- indeed, most countries are, if you look at a map, small compared to the four “super-states” of the US, Russia, India, and China. Communism would probably result in smaller countries.
          Wrong, you misunderstood the argument. It's not about travel or communication issues - it's homing on the fact that the scarcity of Communism on a macro-level causes it to fail, while the lack of that scarcity in a smaller community (thus, a microcosm of Communism within a macrocosm of Capitalism) allows it to succeed on some level. You may find it to tempting to argue that then at least ONE country be communist, but you have to realize that the same scarcity that would cripple a global Communism would cripple one country's Communism as well; scarcity forces them to globalize, and in a globe that is not Communist, one Communist country could not very well thrive.

          [Governmental Issues (1)

          Argument: Communism requires a massive and intrusive government to function. Citizens would lose all freedom.

          Counter-Argument: Communism calls the general abolition of the state. Like the Jeffersonians, Communism calls for a basic level of centralized government, but puts most of the power on local government. Control rests in the hands of the public, not the politicians. It is the public and the public only who decide how intrusive to let their government be.
          Again, strawman. No one is arguing about the inherent results of a culminated Communism, we're arguing against the ability for Communism to culminate to its envisioned stage. We're attacking the plausibility - not the results.

          Governmental Issue (2)

          Argument: Communism lets the people be lazy- they can sit back have the government take care of them.

          Counter-Argument: Communism requires people to work even more than Capitalism does. The “to each according to his needs” requires a “from each according to his abilities”. People must work for their daily bread, people must vote and take an active role in their own governance.
          No one is arguing this. "Lazy" does not equate to "non-innovative" - I'm sure the Communist people would be very hard working in their factory jobs and as criminals. We are saying, however, that there would be no progress without incentive to make it. I, myself, think that this is a bit of a wash as far as the arguments go against Communism, but I don't think it matters because there are too many other crippling flaws for Communism to work.

          Governmental Issue (3)

          Argument: Communism has been attempted and it failed- even if we accept everything about Communism, we can see that it doesn’t work since Leon Trotsky, the populist leader, was ousted, exiled, and assassinated by Stalin. Communism doesn’t work.

          Counter-Argument: Neither does Democracy. Corruption entered into the Greek political system and brought the democratic city-states crashing down. Do we claim that Democracy is impossible? Do we give up on it? Not at all- we simply figure out what went wrong, fix it, and try it again. It’s what the founding fathers of the US did, it’s what the French and English did, and so on.
          Neither does Democracy? Sure it does. The biggest superpowers in the world are Democratic. Don't get me wrong, no one is claiming that Democracy is infallible - what we're saying is the empirical evidence available to us suggests that Democracy is a far more sustainable form of government than Communism, in the short and long term. We're arguing comparative relative values - not absolutes of perfect and perfectly flawed.

          Lifestyle Dilemma

          Argument: Communism brings about a lower standard of living. Capitalism is better than Communism since Capitalism can provide a higher quality of life.

          Counter-Argument: In this Capitalist world, it is only a slim minority who benefit from the free market. Yes, some standards of living will decrease but across the globe, billions of people will have a massive increase in their standard of living. Besides, even if the world could live as the average American does, we would need at least three more planet earths just to sustain our decadent lifestyle.
          again, not arguing the result of a culminated Communism, arguing the invalidity of it ever happening.
          #TeamSwoll

          Comment

          • dore
            caveman pornstar
            FFR Simfile Author
            FFR Music Producer
            • Feb 2006
            • 6317

            #20
            Re: The Ideal Government

            lol, why'd you bother with that? It's not like he actually thought up any of those ideas.



            yay google
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IREnpHco9mw

            Comment

            • justaguy
              Forum User
              FFR Simfile Author
              • Mar 2004
              • 3566

              #21
              Re: The Ideal Government

              LOL he copied and pasted someone else's arguments in a critical thinking topic? lmfao that is pathetic
              #TeamSwoll

              Comment

              • Reincarnate
                x'); DROP TABLE FFR;--
                • Nov 2010
                • 6332

                #22
                Re: The Ideal Government

                imo it was obvious copypaste just by the layout and tldrness alone

                Comment

                • justaguy
                  Forum User
                  FFR Simfile Author
                  • Mar 2004
                  • 3566

                  #23
                  Re: The Ideal Government

                  yea i guess it just didn't occur to me that someone would even conceivably have to search for counter arguments on google in order to post in an internet critical thinking topic.
                  #TeamSwoll

                  Comment

                  • Without A Contraceptive
                    FFR Player
                    • Mar 2007
                    • 212

                    #24
                    Re: The Ideal Government

                    ya man damn, good rebuttal to the kid's nonsense, but it was definitely pretty obvious that the entire post was a copy; paste.


                    kid is ignorant, end of story

                    Comment

                    • RB_Dreamscanner
                      ☭Retired Top One Hander☭
                      • Nov 2006
                      • 1789

                      #25
                      Re: The Ideal Government

                      Never said i made that argument.
                      "The Communist vision is the vision of man without God"



                      Retired, Finished at rank 295, Top one hander on FFR

                      Comment

                      • ffraxis
                        FFR Player
                        • Jul 2006
                        • 114

                        #26
                        Re: The Ideal Government

                        another derailed thread.

                        excellent job team.

                        Comment

                        • devonin
                          Very Grave Indeed
                          Event Staff
                          FFR Simfile Author
                          • Apr 2004
                          • 10120

                          #27
                          Re: The Ideal Government

                          You blew it up! You maniacs!

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