What happens after we die.

[Silver Sky]

Re: What happens after we die.

Wow. Read the bible. The bible is the most dated back book that was found in scrolls. Nothing is dated back more than the bible. Just read Ecclesiastes 9 verse 5: For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all; neither do they have any more wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. So a figurative sleep is what this means. Not Hell fire. Also Read Genesis 3 verse 19. Says : In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground. FOR OUT OF IT YOU WERE TAKEN. FOR DUST YOU ARE AND TO DUST YOU WILL RETURN. Yes we are made from dust. Case closed.

[MrRubix]

Re: What happens after we die.

Evolution has more holes in it then any other belief.
Where's my proof of a God? Where's my hope that I have?
I base my claim on logic, not emotion.
Have you ever actually looked at the Earth? Have you examined water molecules and how they stick together?
Or have you even looked at the Golden Spiral of the galaxy?

Or the variety and the colors. Have you even considered the wings of a luminecent butterfly? Or how its ridges are so intricate to disprove evolution?
Don't tell me I have no proof when I have the Earth as proof.

If the Earth was tilted in just the wrong way, or rotated at just the wrong speed. We would all be dead. If we were just a hundred miles closer to the sun or further, we would be dead.
This world is my proof, along with the universe.

This is a very, very common misunderstanding.

Keep in mind we wouldn't BE HERE in the first place if not for necessary conditions. Our life form is specific in the sense that our environment is conducive to it. We exist precisely BECAUSE our planet is in the right place with the right resources. If all the other planets had similar conditions, they may have life too, but they do not. There are billions of galaxies containing billions of stars with planets. We just happen to be one planet with the necessary conditions for life. There may be many more.

As for your "color"/butterfly/water argument, these things are all deterministic. We see the colors that we do because our form is evolved to do so. Consider the bee -- its visible spectrum is shifted down the EM spectrum compared to us. They are able to see UV whereas we cannot. The ability to perceive color is merely a physical construct made to interact with and interpret a certain range of wavelengths. Different forms may interpret different ranges.

How on earth do the ridges of a butterfly's wings disprove evolution?

Water molecules stick together the way that they do based on physical forces. We can explain all sorts of forces -- strong nuclear, weak nuclear, gravity, electromagnetic, dispersion, dipole-dipole, hydrogen bonds, etc. We dont say water does what it does by chance but rather it does what it does because of its properties and how the forces interact as a result. It's deterministic.

You base your claim on emotion still -- you're saying "Look at how complex this stuff is! Look at how improbable certain things must be! How pretty some things are! This must have been the work of God!" That is an emotional response -- not a logical one.

Again, explain these holes in evolution you refer to, please. If you are truly a man of logic and not faith, then you should be able to provide a logical explanation that shows why the current evidence MUST be logically suspect.

[devonin]

Re: What happens after we die.

I'll also point out that we're skirting dangerously close to unfalsifiability here. Since nobody I'm aware of has even been dead, come back to life, and claimed to have experienced any kind of awareness while dead, and do so in a way that is incontrovertibly true, there is no correct conclusion this thread or any poster in it could arrive at. All we have are suppositions, and while some suppositions are more likely than others, and some are based on more concrete evidence than others, nobody here is going to be proven correct or incorrect.

Also, sorry cix0clock I was merging your double post (Stop double posting, by the way) but still had a post from earlier in the thread selected for deletion, and ended up merging them all back a page. You can repost your post if you like, or we can just move forward, but I seem to lack the ability to revert the merge.

[MrRubix]

Re: What happens after we die.

That life emerged by accident. That through a series of unlikely, random events, that the human race was formed, produced with all of its emotional, intellect, and spiritual capacities.
That we all come from a common ancestor.

In a sense we would be an orphan. We would have no source of a superior wisdom to consult, no one to help us solve our problems.
Evolution is the theory that various mutations occured and changed into our genetic code, a scientific impossibility. And the creatures that could not survive died out.

No evolutionist would say that life emerged by accident. Evolution and natural selection is a very non-random process. It's very much a deterministic one.

Again, don't confuse evolution for abiogenesis. They are separate concepts.

Saying that "life is too improbable to come about by chance" is missing the point. We don't say things happen because of chance.

It would be like dropping a ball and then watching where it lands, saying "Look at how improbable it was for this ball to land in this very spot! There are an infinitely great number of areas this ball could have technically hit the ground. Watch me calculate 1/huge number to show how unlikely this one scenario is." And yet we don't say the ball landed there by chance, but because of gravity and other factors such as wind resistance, drop angle, velocity differentials, etc. All of which are deterministic forces. We don't know WHERE the ball will land -- just that it will LAND SOMEWHERE. Much like evolution, this is not a forward-looking process. Evolution doesn't know how things will end up -- just that there WILL be change to adapt to the environment.

Also, since when do we absolutely "need" a higher authority to help us solve our problems? This is, again, an emotional response.

"Evolution is the theory that various mutations occured and changed into our genetic code, a scientific impossibility. And the creatures that could not survive died out."

What? How on earth is this a scientific impossibility when we fully understand genetic mutation? How do you explain the reproduction process, then?

You are right that creatures that could not survive eventually die out. This is a function of natural selection. Things best equipped to withstand the environment and other life forms will carry on. "Survival of the fittest," so to speak. But you are incorrect that mutation is a scientific impossibility, lol. Mutations occur from generation to generation, and through gradual changes do we start to filter out the mutations less fit and perpetuate those that ARE fit to continue to reproduce and mutate to self-reinforce the process.

[Ryn2075]

Re: What happens after we die.

This is also incorrect. Evolution is a very well-understood process, and it is factual. Scientists may not agree on certain specific details of form origins, but the process of evolution and natural selection is well-substantiated by mountains of evidence. The only people who disagree with it are typically those who misunderstand it or are unaware of the evidence. Now, if you're getting into abiogenesis, I'd agree that many people are unsure/may disagree because it's not as well-supported. But, as stated in the metaphysics thread, a belief in evolution doesn't mean you have to believe in abiogenesis. Evolution simply describes how lifeforms change assuming there is life to begin with. Abiogenesis is a theory for how that life may have originated in the first place.

Explain to me your understanding of what evolution and natural selection is, please, and why you do not believe in it.

Let me ask you a question Mr. Rubix. If evolution is such a well-understood process, backed by what you call "mountains of evidence" (even though most of that evidence can't be linked to one another in a linear format), then why haven't scientists been able to duplicate the functions of a bird properly? A simple bird, who takes off and flaps its wings to propel itself forward. If scientists understand that so well, why can't they create a plane capable of taking off and landing using only flapping limbs? Why can't scientists figure out the specifics of how a bird knows when to migrate? There are numerous examples of intricate design in the life-forms here on earth.

Another example. A cheetah can run up to 60-65 mph, yet it can turn instantly at a 90 degree angle. If this is so well-understood, why haven't scientists been able to create a transportation device capable of turning in such a way? You say you have evidence, but like I said, none of that "evidence" can be linked to one another with factual proof. Evolution is far from factual, and is a theory and belief just like religion is.

~Ryan

P.S. - By your viewpoint, Waldo also evolved from something else. Where is Waldo? No one knows. If scientists know everything about Waldo, why can't they find him? =P Lolz.

[Silver Sky]

Re: What happens after we die.

And the bible is real yes. All these scrolls they found in Hebrew wasn't just a coincidence. The bible tells about so many different prophecies that occured and still are occuring. Examples? I will be glad to explain some. For instance with Babylon the Great. It was prophesied that Babylon the Great would become desolated. Jehovah God brought that city to ruin cause of the things happening there. And God even said that No one would ever even live there again. Results? Find me one person who lives in that vast desert. 2) All these troublesome times we are living in. You might not be feeling it yet but it's going to get far worse. All dating back to 1914. The bible actually has all dates leading up to prophesying that Satan the Devil was hurled down to the earth in 1914. Results? War World 1 Yes the bible prophesied this happening. Do research on how the world was before 1914 and how it was afterwards, and you tell me something didn't happen. 3) As brought out before about these troublesome times. Read 2 Timothy 3: 1-5. It says and I quote: But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of Godly devotion but proving false to its power, and from these turn away. Hmm....weird All these events are taking place today. There are so many prophecies that have occured and are occuring. So yes the bible is real.

[MrRubix]

Re: What happens after we die.

I'll also point out that we're skirting dangerously close to unfalsifiability here. Since nobody I'm aware of has even been dead, come back to life, and claimed to have experienced any kind of awareness while dead, and do so in a way that is incontrovertibly true, there is no correct conclusion this thread or any poster in it could arrive at. All we have are suppositions, and while some suppositions are more likely than others, and some are based on more concrete evidence than others, nobody here is going to be proven correct or incorrect.

Absolutely. We, of course, won't know what happens in death until we actually hit it. And, if there is nothing after death, we won't know it's death by that very nature. If there is an afterlife, then I'll be pleasantly surprised.

But there is plenty of evidence we can use to suggest one conclusion over another. It comes down to whether or not you're a man of logic/science or faith. Some people are okay with believing something in absence of evidence, and that's fine. Others require evidence and support for what they believe in.

[devonin]

Re: What happens after we die.

@silver sky nobody is suggesting that the bible isn't real. It is, I've read several. What they are saying is that the bible is not completely factual. And that is also true.

I could write a book now, that was 99% factually correct, and put in 1% that said I was the undisputed master of the universe, and all should worship me. I can still point to the fact that it is 99% correct, but does that mean it is 100% correct?

Let me put it another way: Just because some things in the bible are factual doesn't mean it all is.


@Ryn Just because we don't know -something- doesn't mean we don't know -anything- this is the exact same logic as directed to Silver Sky. You've pointed to an example of cheetahs. They have both high speed and a very small turning radius, so why haven't we made a means of transportation that does that? On -foot- I have an identically tight turning radius, and by car I can move substantially faster for a substantially longer time. Why would I WANT TO BOTHER trying to make a mode of transportation that exactly duplicates the speed and turning ability of a cheetah?

[Silver Sky]

Re: What happens after we die.

I'm referring to fido123. And the bible is 100 percent accurate. Name one thing about the bible being inaccurate?

[MrRubix]

Re: What happens after we die.

Let me ask you a question Mr. Rubix. If evolution is such a well-understood process, backed by what you call "mountains of evidence" (even though most of that evidence can't be linked to one another in a linear format), then why haven't scientists been able to duplicate the functions of a bird properly? A simple bird, who takes off and flaps its wings to propel itself forward. If scientists understand that so well, why can't they create a plane capable of taking off and landing using only flapping limbs? Why can't scientists figure out the specifics of how a bird knows when to migrate? There are numerous examples of intricate design in the life-forms here on earth.

Another example. A cheetah can run up to 60-65 mph, yet it can turn instantly at a 90 degree angle. If this is so well-understood, why haven't scientists been able to create a transportation device capable of turning in such a way? You say you have evidence, but like I said, none of that "evidence" can be linked to one another with factual proof. Evolution is far from factual, and is a theory and belief just like religion is.

~Ryan

P.S. - By your viewpoint, Waldo also evolved from something else. Where is Waldo? No one knows. If scientists know everything about Waldo, why can't they find him? =P Lolz.

I don't understand how your questions here are meant to grind against evolution. Evolution is a natural process. We do understand why birds fly, and we can also show this by creating various things that DO fly.

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2009/01/08/why-wing-flapping-planes-wont-fly/

http://www.prisonplanet.com/insect-spies-tiny-craft-can-fly-by-flapping-wings.html

We make planes that soar because we need a way to transport heavy cargo. Birds are hollow-boned and comparatively light. Wings that flap do so because of the ability to fine-tune. It'd be like saying "We can't replicate a machine that walks like a human, so walking must be impossible." While we do have machines that do this, we are able to walk like we do because we can adjust HOW we walk in real-time in response to various stimuli, much like how a bird controls its wings. Most "wing flapping machines" can't adjust to the stimuli in real-time in the same manner. It doesn't mean wing flapping is impossible when a bird is obviously capable of it. It's just not a technology we, as humans, honestly have much use for when we can control efficient flying and fine-tuning with a straight-winged, fueled plane.

Same goes for your Cheetah example -- we have plenty of devices that move and operate in a way more efficiently and differently from other forms of transportation -- I don't know why you're saying "A human cannot reproduce this function, therefore evolution is false." The argument itself just doesn't make sense. What point are you trying to get at, here?

Evolution is a process that is very much factual and substantiated by proof, so I don't know where you're getting off saying that it's just as fanciful as any other belief.

[Ryn2075]

Re: What happens after we die.

I never said that the speed of a cheetah should be replicated, just the turning ability. Speed is not an issue, and turning ability is not the issue. Turning ability WHILE going fast is my point. Why WOULDN'T you want to create something like that? It has the potential to save lives and prevent accidents.

What I said in my post is not fact, as I can't disprove evolution any more than evolutionists can disprove creation, but it IS logical.

[Reach]

Re: What happens after we die.

Let me ask you a question Mr. Rubix. If evolution is such a well-understood process, backed by what you call "mountains of evidence" (even though most of that evidence can't be linked to one another in a linear format), then why haven't scientists been able to duplicate the functions of a bird properly? A simple bird, who takes off and flaps its wings to propel itself forward. If scientists understand that so well, why can't they create a plane capable of taking off and landing using only flapping limbs? Why can't scientists figure out the specifics of how a bird knows when to migrate? There are numerous examples of intricate design in the life-forms here on earth.

Another example. A cheetah can run up to 60-65 mph, yet it can turn instantly at a 90 degree angle. If this is so well-understood, why haven't scientists been able to create a transportation device capable of turning in such a way? You say you have evidence, but like I said, none of that "evidence" can be linked to one another with factual proof. Evolution is far from factual, and is a theory and belief just like religion is.

~Ryan

P.S. - By your viewpoint, Waldo also evolved from something else. Where is Waldo? No one knows. If scientists know everything about Waldo, why can't they find him? =P Lolz.

Please explain to me what duplicating the functions of a bird has to do with evolution.

None of this has anything to do with evolution. You can prove evolution is true independent of any of this.

I've never heard such a strange argument. Is this an extension of the watch maker argument? If so, you can find numerous rebuttals just about anywhere, so I won't bother.


Also, your last sentence is the farthest thing from the truth. Please explain to me how evolution constitutes a belief system.

Also, why don't you explain to me what a theory is to test whether you're even remotely scientifically literate.


I'm not going to get into a discussion with someone that is profoundly ignorant on this subject. From experience, people that make such claims are scientifically illiterate.


I don't even want to get into this really, but if you're going to barge into a four page thread and start making grandiose claims, you're going to have to back them up with something other than rubbish.

[MrRubix]

Re: What happens after we die.

I never said that the speed of a cheetah should be replicated, just the turning ability. Speed is not an issue, and turning ability is not the issue. Turning ability WHILE going fast is my point. Why WOULDN'T you want to create something like that? It has the potential to save lives and prevent accidents.

What I said in my post is not fact, as I can't disprove evolution any more than evolutionists can disprove creation, but it IS logical.

Hardly logical. We have all sorts of cars, for instance, that have very tight turning radii at high speeds, so saying "sharp turning at high speeds is impossible" is just false. A cheetah is a sentient life form that can move the way it does because of how it is equipped. It has joints that allow it to twist and turn at various points. It has a brain that reacts to stimuli and can fine-tune the muscle movements. If we made a car that turns 90 degrees at some absurdly high speed, the inertia would be quite disorienting to humans. You wouldn't want to be making a 90 degree turn at 70 MPH in the first place (I can already imagine what kind of accidents could result from this), so your safety argument is hardly a logical one.

[cixOclock]

Re: What happens after we die.

I don't see how you can view evolution as logical, everything about it; mentally, physically, its more like saying that 'you don't believe in god, but I believe in a magical explosion that created our sophisticated bodies in roughly 5billion years'. Now thats illogical; believe it or not but evolution is a religion in itself. It believes that things occured randomly and without explaination, except that bacteria formed and grew into fish.

[Silver Sky]

Re: What happens after we die.

It's just like a house. Do you think a house just appears out of no where? All plumbing, electricity, paint, furnishing, all these things appeared out of no where? Of course not. They all took time. Planning the blue prints, measuring, carpenters, plumbers, electricians. the whole nine yards. The same way is with the earth. All of a sudden a "Big Bang" occured that our earth crashing from another rock all of a sudden put trees, oxygen, water, all these beautiful things we see here. Yeah sure. It would take time, a creator to do such a thing. To plan ahead with knowing how close to put us away or close to the sun. To have these planets lined up so no planet would crash into another. It's actually common sense. God must be an evolutionist. He was the one who said the earth was round in the first place before humans could ever even think.