Does A Senseless Man Dream?

[windsurfer-sp]

Re: Does A Senseless Man Dream?

From a religious standpoint would such a person, that could never be reached, be able to be saved? They could never sin because they could never act. On the other hand, they could never choose to believe in God because they could never experience the world. This person could live a full "life" if kept alive, but never experience anything.

There quite a lot of problems with this and is really a seperate argument here.

Agian lets not turn this into a disprove Christianity thread we are simply trying to see how religion (assumedly Christianity judging by the context given) would relate to the senseless man.

If the Christian God (along with living Christian Theoology) and a senseless man exist do they contradict?

Well if the senseless man can think then he can sin and thus will have a need for salvation. He can not obviously be told anything about God or Jesus etc. so if he was to be saved it would require a pagan salvation (savlation of someone who does not know about Jesus or Christianity).

The bible does say (in Romans I belive) that all men know of God and of good and evil. Thus even a senseless man will have an ability to love God even if he knows no theology. Many people belive this is enough for salvation.

No one knows for sure who is saved though but I do not see it as an impossibility.

So in conclusion the idea of a senseless man does not seem to directly contradict God. Really the root of this question lies in the ideal of pagan salvation etc...

[RangerPete]

Re: Does A Senseless Man Dream?

Hello, I am new to this site, and don't exactly know quite how the system works, so if I am doin' anything wrong just let me know. I have been glancing through some of the critical thinking posts and I think that yall have some really interesting debates going on.

I was a preacher for 13 years up in Montana, so I can't say that I necessarily agree with everything yall have been posting, but I try to keep an open mind. My grandson recently told his parents that he no longer believes in religion, and we had a long talk. He showed me some old posts on this site that had influenced his opinion. Now I do not blame anyone or hold any kind of grudge, but I thought that I might try putting in my two cents on a few of these debates and see what thoughts I might get in return.

I can't figure out how to work yall's fancy quotation system, so I apologize for doing it the old fashioned way:

"From a religious standpoint would such a person, that could never be reached, be able to be saved? They could never sin because they could never act. On the other hand, they could never choose to believe in God because they could never experience the world. This person could live a full "life" if kept alive, but never experience anything."
-richhhhhard

Now what I think you are trying to argue here is not that a senseless man and God "contradict" as Mr. windsurfer-sp suggests. My interpretation was that you were suggesting that a senseless man would not experience anything at all. Which would be a contradiction to Mr. windsurfer-sp 's claim: " that all men know of God and of good and evil"

If a senseless man does not experience anything without external stimulus than I believe Mr. richhhhhard's argument is that he cannot experience good or evil. However, though this makes logical sense, there is no proof to support that a senseless man would have no knowledge.

"No one knows for sure who is saved though but I do not see it as an impossibility. "
-Windsurfer-sp

Though it is true that no man knows who is saved, I think if you read the Good Book it is made very clear what is required for salvation. This is clearly stated in the most well known Bible verse: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." -John 3:16

Given this criteria, I believe that a senseless man could not be saved. It is my belief that in order to be saved you must truly believe, and to truly believe you have to experience things and make a conscious choice. With no senses this does not seem as if it would be possible, but when has there ever been a man born without any senses?

I am very eager to hear your thoughts on the matter Mr. richhhhhard, and Mr. windsurfer-sp, and of course anyone else who has a thought on the matter.

[Reach]

Re: Does A Senseless Man Dream?

The correct answer is you only dream with the senses you use in the real world. We know this from research.

Also, if you go deaf/blind/etc during your life, you can still dream, but usually only after a certain critical period age (e.g. about 7 for deafness and perceiving sound during dreams).

If you completely lacked any sensory input processing it would be equivalent to being dead. Assuming the brainstem is still intact, you would still be alive (see babies with anencephaly), and would maintain your posture and react to things that poke you and things like that, but you would not be in any way, shape or form aware of your existence. It's not just the presence of the material brain that makes us who we are, it is the experiences we have that take that brain and shape it into it's current form. Without experience we have nothing, as the material brain never develops properly.

[devonin]

Re: Does A Senseless Man Dream?

Hey Korny, you know what's not a good idea? Ban evasion.

[richy:]

Re: Does A Senseless Man Dream?

Hey Korny, you know what's not a good idea? Ban evasion.

First off, ban evasion is not a good idea, that is correct.
However, it is also not a very good thing to accuse someone of something that they are innocent of (ironic I know cause that is basically what I was banned for).
Unless you were were writing this to korny to warn him that it is not a good idea in general, that is exactly what you have done too.
I am Richard, richhhhhard, and though I am tempted to say that my grandfather is RangerPete, I will not do that because that would detract from the fact that this is one of my first *completely* honest posts.
I am also RangerPete, and all of this has basically been a game to me.
However, in *my* being banned, korny was also banned, called a jack ass, and accused of ban evasion. In reality what did he do?
Look up his latest posts and see if he has done anything ban-worthy.
If you believe that me and korny are the same person you could say that he has, because I have done plenty of things that are ban-worthy.
However I think it can be shown pretty easily that me and korny are in fact two separate people if you search the threads by post for "richhhhhard" and see me and korny's interactions a few years ago, or even a few months ago.

I made that account 3 years ago to join his super smash bros tournaments. If you read any thread that we both talked in (there are not that many, I don't think i had more than 90 posts total) we are usually arguing. If I was korny why would I sign in as a different user to argue with myself? I think this is most clear in the critical thinking thread entitled "economy fix or fail".

A few months ago, korny was taking that debate very seriously, and I made only one comment, and it was just to piss him off. (go look i think it is post #35 or close to it). If you can think of one rational explanation to why korny would have signed out of his account, signed into one that had been inactive for at least a year just to say that, and then signed back into his normal one and continued the debate I would love to hear it.

If I was a new user, who's only posts were in the critical thinking forum, I could understand how korny would be accused, but since there is a 3 year history in the threads that shows pretty clearly that me and korny went to high school together, and are friends (*not* the same person) I don't get why he is repeatedly being blamed and punished.
In all reality the only crime korny committed to be banned was using my computer the day that I decided to go out of my way to try to get banned.
Did he know when he signed on that I was going to do that later?
No.
Have any of you ever signed onto your ffr account at a friends house?
Would you be upset if you did and then tried to sign on the next day and couldn't simply because you had used their computer before they did something really dumb?

I don't know, I know no matter how you look at it, it is at the very least *mostly* if not completely my fault that he was banned, but after it happened I had a long discussion with one of the moderators that had been involved in the whole situation and he seemed to be sympathetic to korny's situation. He said he would forward the conversation to the one that controlled korny's ban, but nothing ever came of it.

Devonin, I messaged you my complete thoughts on the situation, as well as Tasselfoot.

Before I am banned yet again I hope you will read it.

And if you want to delete this post feel free, but I hope you will also remove the one claiming that korny is responsible for this.

Oh, and thanks to everyone who contributed to my threads when I took this seriously, it really did open my eyes to a lot of new ideas.

[MrRubix]

Re: Does A Senseless Man Dream?

(see babies with anencephaly)

Holy crap O.O

[windsurfer-sp]

Re: Does A Senseless Man Dream?

I was hoping someone would post something like that. Is there actually any examples of adults with no senses? I highly doubt it.

[Necros140606]

Re: Does A Senseless Man Dream?

I watched a show on a blind guy that was an incredible painter. He was born without any eyes at all so im assuming if he was able to paint some of the pictures he did his dreams couldnt be to far off from our own. that is just one guy so i have to clue if any other blind people have the same visions has he does.

blind people recognize objects by touch

that's why he can be blind *and* a good painter.

[Seefu Sefirosu]

Re: Does A Senseless Man Dream?

What does a blind man see in his dreams?
Does he experience his dreamworld in total darkness?
What of a deaf man?
In his dream does he read lips?
Does a man that lacks all 5 senses dream at all?
Does he even perceive that he exists?
What if [Helen Keller] had not had those senses either though?
From a religious standpoint would such a person, that could never be reached, be able to be saved?
From a philosophical standpoint would such a person even exist?
But do they perceive that they exist, and that they are a part of the universe?
Do they have any thoughts at all?
Does anything, aside from anatomy, separate them from a plant?
Does anything make them more than an aggregation of biological building blocks?

1. This depends on whether or not the aforementioned blind man ever had sight.

2. Again, depending on whether he ever had sight, he may or may not.

3. Depends on whether or not that man has ever been able to hear.

4. Again, depending on whether he was ever able to hear, maybe, maybe not.

5. Those who lack all 5 senses generally die before we can really ask them objective questions, or pull any information out of them at all. Seeing as they cannot taste, feel, hear, see, or smell, we have no way to get information or response from them.

6. Probably not. The subject is most likely dead (literally) before reaching the age at which most humans start to perceive existence.

7. She probably would have died long before she did.

8. From a religious standpoint, I tend to doubt the logic of most religious people, however, I doubt that a person with no sensory input could get enough information to make a choice.

9. Yes, but they would never attain any enlightenment or achieve any answers, since answers generally require sensory experience (reading, speaking, etc.).

10. Doubtfully. Such thoughts REQUIRE sensory input.

11. I'd bet they did, but you'd never know of them. They would have no way to communicate them. Sign language requires sight, braille requires touch, and English (or any spoken language) requires at least sight to learn (by reading lips), but hearing is preferred.

12. Yes, from certain plants. Certain plants can feel, in a way, most notably ivy and vine-type plants.

13. Not really, in any way I can see.

[Reach]

Re: Does A Senseless Man Dream?

I was hoping someone would post something like that. Is there actually any examples of adults with no senses? I highly doubt it.

Not really. Babies with anencephaly have no senses, but they always die. Usually in a few days or weeks. There would be no way to keep somebody alive that had no senses, for reasons I already stated, unless they were hooked up to a machine 24/7. There would be no point though. They wouldn't be able to do anything, and they'd quickly lose the ability to think at all given the lack of any sensory input and output to their brains.

(I should note there is one sense that requires a bit of expansion - feeling. For example, pain - even with the brain removed, an individual could have nociceptors, receptors used to pick up pain stimulus. However, in say, babies with anencephaly, they would not be able to experience that pain, because without the material brain to process that pain information there is no conscious perception of pain, only mere reaction to it from the spinal cord/brain stem. It's the same reason you wouldn't really argue a fly could feel pain - it lacks a properly sophisticated brain to process that pain information consciously, despite having pain receptors.)

[Cavernio]

Re: Does A Senseless Man Dream?

I posted my answer here as fact because I believe that a lot of what I learned from my science degree in psychology is factual.