Time (and existence)

[insanefreddy926]

Re: Time (and existence)

I think you guys need to understand special relativity a bit more to understand what Reach has been saying. So here's a crash course :

One of the most important things we've discovered about the universe is that light always travels at the same speed (through a given medium). This may sound obvious, but if you think about it, it's really weird. Consider standing on a street, and throwing a ball. You are stationary, and you throw the ball and it goes 10 meters per second. Now let's say you hop on your skateboard with the ball. You ride down the street at 5 m/s and throw the ball while on your board with the exact same force as before. Now the ball will travel at 15 m/s, since it's already moving at 5 m/s and you throw it at 10 m/s. Now let's say you repeat both steps, but instead of throwing a ball, you shine a flashlight. The speed of light is about 3X10^8 m/s. So you shine it while standing still and it goes at 3X10^8 m/s. You would think that when you shine the light while moving on your skateboard, it would go 3X10^8 m/s plus the 5 m/s you're already moving, just like the ball. But it doesn't. It still only travels at 3X10^8 m/s. This type of experiment has been done (albeit not exactly in the same way) and proven.

So knowing this, we can generate a "thought experiment" which makes use of this curious property of light. Now the actual experiment is impossible to do (hence "thought experiment") but you can figure out a lot from it: Say you are in a spaceship, traveling at a constant speed. The ship has a large window. You have a large transparent cylinder which has mirrors at each end of it. There is a light beam which is continuously bouncing back and forth between these mirrors.

There is also an observer standing on the Earth, stationary. We say that you and the person on the earth are in two different "reference frames" because you are moving while the observer is stationary.

So you're going in your spaceship, and you fly right by the observer while the light is bouncing in the cylinder. You and the observer both see that light travel from the top of the cylinder to the bottom of it. You and the observer both measure how far you saw the light travel. To you, the light went in a vertical line, from top to bottom. So the distance you measure is the length of the cylinder. To the observer, however, the light traveled in a diagonal line, because while it was moving up and down in the cylinder, the ship was also moving sideways past the observer.

Now we can form a right triangle. One side is the distance you saw the light travel. The hypotenuse is the diagonal distance the observer saw the light travel. The other side is the distance the ship traveled while the light went from top to bottom. We know that distance/time = speed. So distance = speed*time. We know that light always travels at the same speed.. We know that the observer saw the light travel a longer distance than you did, because the diagonal side of a right triangle is longer than the other sides. This means that the light traveled two different distances while going at the same speed. Since distance = speed*time, this must mean that you and the observer both experienced two different times. Since the light traveled a shorter distance for you, "your time" was passing slower, relative to the observer.

That's pretty much the basis of it. If you were to use the Pythagorean Theorem on that triangle and fiddle around with it, you would end up with a form of that formula which Reach referenced. But this really shows that the act of traveling through space alters the time which you experience. In fact it slows it down.

Now if you were to use that formula you would see that the faster you travel the slower time passes. When you travel at the speed of light (which isn't really possible) time passes infinitely slowly; or it stops.

edit:

The "classic example" of a black hole is just an object that is so dense that its gravitational pull is so strong that light cannot escape. Space doesn't "bend." It is the particles within that space that are being drawn toward something.

Actually the classic example of a black hole is an object so dense that it bends space so much that every direction you can travel inside the event horizon leads to the center of it. So when light crosses the event horizon, it travels in "straight" lines which lead to the center of the black hole.

[richhhhhard]

Re: Time (and existence)

I think you guys need to understand special relativity a bit more to understand what Reach has been saying. So here's a crash course :

One of the most important things we've discovered about the universe is that light always travels at the same speed (through a given medium). This may sound obvious, but if you think about it, it's really weird. Consider standing on a street, and throwing a ball. You are stationary, and you throw the ball and it goes 10 meters per second. Now let's say you hop on your skateboard with the ball. You ride down the street at 5 m/s and throw the ball while on your board with the exact same force as before. Now the ball will travel at 15 m/s, since it's already moving at 5 m/s and you throw it at 10 m/s. Now let's say you repeat both steps, but instead of throwing a ball, you shine a flashlight. The speed of light is about 3X10^8 m/s. So you shine it while standing still and it goes at 3X10^8 m/s. You would think that when you shine the light while moving on your skateboard, it would go 3X10^8 m/s plus the 5 m/s you're already moving, just like the ball. But it doesn't. It still only travels at 3X10^8 m/s. This type of experiment has been done (albeit not exactly in the same way) and proven.

So knowing this, we can generate a "thought experiment" which makes use of this curious property of light. Now the actual experiment is impossible to do (hence "thought experiment") but you can figure out a lot from it: Say you are in a spaceship, traveling at a constant speed. The ship has a large window. You have a large transparent cylinder which has mirrors at each end of it. There is a light beam which is continuously bouncing back and forth between these mirrors.

There is also an observer standing on the Earth, stationary. We say that you and the person on the earth are in two different "reference frames" because you are moving while the observer is stationary.

So you're going in your spaceship, and you fly right by the observer while the light is bouncing in the cylinder. You and the observer both see that light travel from the top of the cylinder to the bottom of it. You and the observer both measure how far you saw the light travel. To you, the light went in a vertical line, from top to bottom. So the distance you measure is the length of the cylinder. To the observer, however, the light traveled in a diagonal line, because while it was moving up and down in the cylinder, the ship was also moving sideways past the observer.

Now we can form a right triangle. One side is the distance you saw the light travel. The hypotenuse is the diagonal distance the observer saw the light travel. The other side is the distance the ship traveled while the light went from top to bottom. We know that distance/time = speed. So distance = speed*time. We know that light always travels at the same speed.. We know that the observer saw the light travel a longer distance than you did, because the diagonal side of a right triangle is longer than the other sides. This means that the light traveled two different distances while going at the same speed. Since distance = speed*time, this must mean that you and the observer both experienced two different times. Since the light traveled a shorter distance for you, "your time" was passing slower, relative to the observer.

That's pretty much the basis of it. If you were to use the Pythagorean Theorem on that triangle and fiddle around with it, you would end up with a form of that formula which Reach referenced. But this really shows that the act of traveling through space alters the time which you experience. In fact it slows it down.

Now if you were to use that formula you would see that the faster you travel the slower time passes. When you travel at the speed of light (which isn't really possible) time passes infinitely slowly; or it stops.

edit:



Actually the classic example of a black hole is an object so dense that it bends space so much that every direction you can travel inside the event horizon leads to the center of it. So when light crosses the event horizon, it travels in "straight" lines which lead to the center of the black hole.

Thanks for the information. However, this does not change anything in my opinion. What you are saying is that the way we *perceive* time changes, but what is *really* happening with the light? Regardless of how the two people perceive it, it is doing the same thing. Because we are limited by our perception does not mean that altering how you perceive something changes the time that passed. To refrence your example, "To the observer, however, the light traveled in a diagonal line, because while it was moving up and down in the cylinder, the ship was also moving sideways past the observer." Is time limited by our perception? Outside of the perception of the two people the light is not doing anything differently. The only thing that is different is that one of them is moving really fast so they perceive a change. The equation d=s*t is irrelevant because that is *supposed* to be measuring only the light, not your perception of it. You are taking a scientific equation and using it to try to rationalize differences in perception.

Edit.
What you said about black holes means the same thing as what I said.

[insanefreddy926]

Re: Time (and existence)

Thanks for the information. However, this does not change anything in my opinion. What you are saying is that the way we *perceive* time changes, but what is *really* happening with the light? Regardless of how the two people perceive it, it is doing the same thing. Because we are limited by our perception does not mean that altering how you perceive something changes the time that passed. To refrence your example, "To the observer, however, the light traveled in a diagonal line, because while it was moving up and down in the cylinder, the ship was also moving sideways past the observer." Is time limited by our perception? Outside of the perception of the two people the light is not doing anything differently. The only thing that is different is that one of them is moving really fast so they perceive a change. The equation d=s*t is irrelevant because that is *supposed* to be measuring only the light, not your perception of it. You are taking a scientific equation and using it to try to rationalize differences in perception.

All I did was explain what Einstein did in formulating special relativity. He used the equation d=s*t with the Pythagorean theorem to derive the Time Dilation formula. That formula accurately predicts the outcomes of experiments which have been performed.

The important thing is that light will always travel at the same speed. How you perceive what the light does matters because if you measure a shorter distance than someone else, your time is passing relatively slower than theirs. It's all relative. The only thing that isn't relative is the speed of light, and that proves that space-time has to be able to somehow bend or slow down to preserve it.

What you said about black holes means the same thing as what I said.

You said that a black hole doesn't bend space. I said that that a black hole bends space so much that all directions lead toward the center.

[richhhhhard]

Re: Time (and existence)

All I did was explain what Einstein did in formulating special relativity. He used the equation d=s*t with the Pythagorean theorem to derive the Time Dilation formula. That formula accurately predicts the outcomes of experiments which have been performed.

The important thing is that light will always travel at the same speed. How you perceive what the light does matters because if you measure a shorter distance than someone else, your time is passing relatively slower than theirs. It's all relative. The only thing that isn't relative is the speed of light, and that proves that space-time has to be able to somehow bend or slow down to preserve it.



You said that a black hole doesn't bend space. I said that that a black hole bends space so much that all directions lead toward the center.

Well I see it as the same thing. I am just still waiting for a definition on what "space" is if it is able to be bent and manipulated. Until then I am going to believe that we are saying the same thing because I don't think that anyone is illogical enough to assume that empty space is something that can be bent. Anyway, if we are only talking about relativity then I still say that "time" is not changing for either. You can justify it however you want but I still say they are only experiencing change at different rates because they are experiencing different situations.

[insanefreddy926]

Re: Time (and existence)

If you don't believe that space can bend, then how do you explain gravity? Our planet is revolving around the sun because it is following a straight line which the mass of the sun has bent. When we look at distant galaxies, their image is physically curved because the mass of a galaxy between them and us bends the space through which their light travels. How else do you explain this?

[richhhhhard]

Re: Time (and existence)

If you don't believe that space can bend, then how do you explain gravity? Our planet is revolving around the sun because it is following a straight line which the mass of the sun has bent. When we look at distant galaxies, their image is physically curved because the mass of a galaxy between them and us bends the space through which their light travels. How else do you explain this?

I explain it simply by gravity?
All matter in the universe is attracted to all other forms. We give this attraction the name gravity. The greater the matters density the greater the force of attraction it applies to other matter. It does not exist just for huge objects though, you can calculate the force that you have on someone you sit next to on a bench for example, it is just not strong enough to be noticeable. So yes, the planet is falling in a straight line toward the strongest force of attraction which is the sun. Just like the moon is falling in a straight line toward the Earth. If the Earth was stationary the moon would crash into it. However the Earth is always moving, just like the sun is always moving.

Also I would say that I explain that an image of a distant galaxy is curved because the force of gravity affects light. That is why it "curves" around planets. The particles within the space are being affected, not the space I think.

[Reach]

Re: Time (and existence)

Alrighty - It isn't my job to give you a physics lesson. I see insanefreddy has tried. I'm replying one more time to your technical errors, and after that I refuse to continue to correct you.

Okay so what you are saying is that light travels in straight lines that bend around areas that "space bends." OR light bends around things with a strong force of gravity. Why do you think it takes an extraordinary mass? *Space* isn't bending, the particles around the object are just being drawn toward that massive object. The "classic example" of a black hole is just an object that is so dense that its gravitational pull is so strong that light cannot escape. Space doesn't "bend." It is the particles within that space that are being drawn toward something.

No.

Light being unable to escape has little to nothing to do with the 'pull'. This has nothing to do with escape velocities we see here on Earth.

Light can't escape the event horizon of a black hole because space beyond that point actually curves back onto itself. That is, mathematically, every straight line at every point within the event horizon of a black hole leads back into the black hole.

It makes much more sense that the big bang was a point that all of the matter of the universe was condensed to a single point due to a massive black hole. At such a point "space" would have been inconsequential because matter would have only been occupying one point. Then an energy build up could have caused the black hole to explode and the matter that was trapped within to be released throughout space. Thus giving "birth" to space and matter (which were really there all along).

Well, I'm glad you're not a physicist. What makes sense to you or anyone else is so utterly meaningless. You rely on mathematics, theory generating and theory testing through collecting data to come to your conclusions, and some times the truth is counter intuitive. That's the way it is.

I think it is you that does not understand this experiment, you and pretty much everyone else. I am curious, what exactly do you think space is? Is space really a malleable thing that can be distorted? Or is it just a medium which can be occupied by matter?

For space to be distorted it has to be made up of something, meaning it would have to be composed of some type of matter. By traveling do you really think you are distorting space, or just the molecules that exist within it? Clearly it does involve 'forces' per say because the speed which induces the "distortion" is causing a force.

Great, thank you so much for telling me why I don't understand the experiment, and then giving be absolutely no reason as to why I misunderstand the experiment. You didn't address any of my points, all of which are correct to begin with. Stop wasting my time. Address my actual points or there is no point in having this discussion.

[richhhhhard]

Re: Time (and existence)

Alrighty - It isn't my job to give you a physics lesson. I see insanefreddy has tried. I'm replying one more time to your technical errors, and after that I refuse to continue to correct you.



No.

Light being unable to escape has little to nothing to do with the 'pull'. This has nothing to do with escape velocities we see here on Earth.

Light can't escape the event horizon of a black hole because space beyond that point actually curves back onto itself. That is, mathematically, every straight line at every point within the event horizon of a black hole leads back into the black hole.



Well, I'm glad you're not a physicist. What makes sense to you or anyone else is so utterly meaningless. You rely on mathematics, theory generating and theory testing through collecting data to come to your conclusions, and some times the truth is counter intuitive. That's the way it is.



Great, thank you so much for telling me why I don't understand the experiment, and then giving be absolutely no reason as to why I misunderstand the experiment. You didn't address any of my points, all of which are correct to begin with. Stop wasting my time. Address my actual points or there is no point in having this discussion.

I really am not a physicist. I took four science classes last semester, I do fine with Biology and Chemistry, but something about Physics just bothers me. It seemed to me the whole time that they were going out of their way to make simple things complicated. Is the universe really so complicated?

Neither of you will give me a definition of space though. If it is curving and bending and warping it has to be made out of something. What about a massive object is causing space to bend?
Also, what do you think light is? It has to in some way be a form of energy or matter.

Sorry if I am wasting your time, but if you will just answer these questions than I will be satisfied.

[SM0K3D_0UT]

Re: Time (and existence)

I really am not a physicist. I took four science classes last semester, I do fine with Biology and Chemistry, but something about Physics just bothers me. It seemed to me the whole time that they were going out of their way to make simple things complicated. Is the universe really so complicated?

Neither of you will give me a definition of space though. If it is curving and bending and warping it has to be made out of something. What about a massive object is causing space to bend?
Also, what do you think light is? It has to in some way be a form of energy or matter.

Sorry if I am wasting your time, but if you will just answer these questions than I will be satisfied.

Space, and the universe, is full of the Cosmic Background Microwave Radiation from the Big-Bang. In addition to this, space would also seem to be full of a lot of other wavelengths of EM radiation, from low RF to gamma. This can be shown by the fact that we are able to observe this radiation across the gaps between galaxies and even across the 'voids' that have been identified.

In fact, and because the universe is regarded as being the same everywhere, it follows that any point in space will have radiation passing through it from every direction, bearing in mind Olber's paradox about infinite quantities etc. Mass is just a form of Energy. Hence E = mc^2..A black hole is a lot of Mass (or Energy). Therefore it bends space a lot....In fact a black hole doesn't have anthing else except mass, angular momentum and charge. That's all it is.

Light continues to circle around the black hole in what is called the Schwartchild radius before disappearing into the event horizon. This is how that scientists are said to find the black holes; they find the bright circles with a black hole in it. light cannot escape a black hole because the velocity needed to escape the gravitation pull of a celestial body of a black hole exceeds the speed of light.

[insanefreddy926]

Re: Time (and existence)

I really am not a physicist. I took four science classes last semester, I do fine with Biology and Chemistry, but something about Physics just bothers me. It seemed to me the whole time that they were going out of their way to make simple things complicated. Is the universe really so complicated?

Neither of you will give me a definition of space though. If it is curving and bending and warping it has to be made out of something. What about a massive object is causing space to bend?
Also, what do you think light is? It has to in some way be a form of energy or matter.

Sorry if I am wasting your time, but if you will just answer these questions than I will be satisfied.

When we talk about space, we actually are talking about space-time. All it is, is the four-dimensional (3 spatial, 1 temporal) manifold in which everything resides and occurs. It isn't really "made out" of anything. It is a property of the universe, and the presence of matter affects that property.

[richhhhhard]

Re: Time (and existence)

Sigh.
Well I suppose this is just not something I will ever be able to understand.
I know it doesn't matter cause it really doesn't affect you guys, but there is a reason I have been thinking so much about stuff like this.
A few months ago I was at my friends apartment and I stood up and walked into the kitchen and everything just got kind of hazy. You know the feeling you get when you stand up too fast? I thought that is what it was but I started shaking and when my vision came back I couldn't remember who I was or where I was or why I was there for a few minutes. I thought maybe it was just my diet or sleeping habits (I am in college so both are pretty bad) but it kept happening no matter how I ate or how much sleep I got. Finally one time that it happened I woke up in the hospital. My mom says that I collapsed on the staircase, but I don't remember.

How are you supposed to make sense of something like this when you still feel like a little kid? They don't even know what the problem is. They think something is causing my brain to swell. It's not cancer, it's not a tumor, my brain is just swelling bigger than there is room for in my skull.

I gave up on religion a long time ago, so that is why I have been thinking about stuff like this so much. I am supposed to be getting married at this age, starting a family, finishing school. My parents are supposed to be picking out toys for their grandchildren not trying to figure out how to pay for my funeral. This is s*** I should be seeing on a TV show, not experiencing in real life.

It made it easier to simplify everything. To think that everything was easier to understand than I had always thought. I guess nothing is easy, or simple, in this world though. There will always be things more complex than I am able to understand. This is probably the last time I will be on here because it is making me really sad.

Thanks everyone though, for explaining things and sharing your thoughts. Oh, and I don't want your sympathy. Just don't take time for granted.

[insanefreddy926]

Re: Time (and existence)

Sigh.
Well I suppose this is just not something I will ever be able to understand.
I know it doesn't matter cause it really doesn't affect you guys, but there is a reason I have been thinking so much about stuff like this.
A few months ago I was at my friends apartment and I stood up and walked into the kitchen and everything just got kind of hazy. You know the feeling you get when you stand up too fast? I thought that is what it was but I started shaking and when my vision came back I couldn't remember who I was or where I was or why I was there for a few minutes. I thought maybe it was just my diet or sleeping habits (I am in college so both are pretty bad) but it kept happening no matter how I ate or how much sleep I got. Finally one time that it happened I woke up in the hospital. My mom says that I collapsed on the staircase, but I don't remember.

How are you supposed to make sense of something like this when you still feel like a little kid? They don't even know what the problem is. They think something is causing my brain to swell. It's not cancer, it's not a tumor, my brain is just swelling bigger than there is room for in my skull.

I gave up on religion a long time ago, so that is why I have been thinking about stuff like this so much. I am supposed to be getting married at this age, starting a family, finishing school. My parents are supposed to be picking out toys for their grandchildren not trying to figure out how to pay for my funeral. This is s*** I should be seeing on a TV show, not experiencing in real life.

It made it easier to simplify everything. To think that everything was easier to understand than I had always thought. I guess nothing is easy, or simple, in this world though. There will always be things more complex than I am able to understand. This is probably the last time I will be on here because it is making me really sad.

Thanks everyone though, for explaining things and sharing your thoughts. Oh, and I don't want your sympathy. Just don't take time for granted.

Well, here's a response, if you ever go back on:

Since you don't want any sympathy, I won't show it (thought it's there). But you can't go on with that outlook. It's true, there will always be more complex things, and nobody, ever, will truly understand everything there is. But that's the beauty of it isn't it? That no matter how much you know, there's always more out there, waiting to be discovered. But what we're doing here, trying to understand the universe, the laws which govern it and it's physics.... It's absolutely nothing compared to the human nature and the greater, more meaningful truths out there, which transcend understanding, and which are really simple yet infinitely complex at the same time. Those kind of things are the real truths, and the ones we should really be trying to figure out.

So don't let this stop you from pursuing your interests and doing what you like. And please don't let it stop you from coming to the FFR community.

[richhhhhard]

Re: Time (and existence)

Words, words, words.
You fools. Don't you see?
I am dead.
All I ever wanted was to receive my letter from Hogwarts. I know I got one, my mom just probably hid it, that b****.
Who does that?
But did Hagrid come knock down my F****ING door>?? NO.
Did they send ME 10,000 more?
NO.
All because I didnt kill the 'he who must not be named' and send the magical world into a period of peace?
that is F****ING BULL S***.
Discrimination if you ask me, but what do you care?
No,
forget about me,
for this is the way that it must be.
If it must be so, then let it be so.

[dsliscoo]

Re: Time (and existence)

Light being unable to escape has little to nothing to do with the 'pull'. This has nothing to do with escape velocities we see here on Earth.

Light can't escape the event horizon of a black hole because space beyond that point actually curves back onto itself. That is, mathematically, every straight line at every point within the event horizon of a black hole leads back into the black hole.
1

I had a question on this idea. Blackholes have X-ray/Gamma Waves coming off of them. Does that theory you support say these are reflection off the black hole, generated by the black hole or something else?

[Cavernio]

Re: Time (and existence)

Rich, I suggest that if you don't understand the concept of einstein's theory of relativity go somewhere to learn about it. Scientific experiments have given us a wholly different view of 'time' than what the original thread talks about. The first few chapters of Faster than the Speed of Light by Joao Magueijo, I found are excellent in the basic understanding of currect physics which highschool just doesn't teach you. Time and space are perceptions, yes, but they follow laws which we figure out through observation and mass. Having non-physicists who aren't teachers who are trying to explain stuff to you is clearly not working, because they aren't physics teachers.