What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

[windsurfer-sp]

Re: What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

dslicoo, surivial is not a valid anwser. If I do not care if I live or die, then I do not care if I am killed for my actions (sucide bombing is a relevant action).

Also behind this all mate, it is some what obvious I am trying to think out and justify a proof for this universe as being more then materialistic. (But lets keep this disscusion orderly by sticking to this particular train of thought at hand and not the wildly larger discusion of the big pitcure.)

[devonin]

Re: What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

To me only something truely higher then materialism can make this right.

Your question wasn't whether it was right or wrong, since you started from a position of "There's no such thing as right and wrong" so there -is- no right and wrong.

If you don't care about the consequences, you do it, and you pay the consequences. I'm not really seeing what further point you're trying to raise here.

[windsurfer-sp]

Re: What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

Ok, so far we have concluded:
If there is only materialism then there is nothing to stop someone from doing wrong.

From this:
How does this effect the idea of materialism? Does materalism contradict the idea that many people have that there should be justice. That ultimately no crime should go unpunished.

I guess even if you belive in an afterlife where evil doers is punished, what is there to say that the person who didn't care about the consequences on Earth will care about the consequences after death?

Actually the more I think about it the more I think the angle of this disscusion dosn't really link into the next point of disscussion im trying to make here. Your right Dev.

[Patashu]

Re: What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

I would like to reiterate that justice is a system we use in the absence of more preventative methods. Imagine if you had a mind changing device; whenever someone commited a crime, you could take them in, alter their personality to correct whatever flaw made them commit the crime, then give them the resources/skills needed for them to integrate back into society. This is clearly better than justice, but impractical because we do not have the methods necessary to fix the thinking processes of any possible criminal; it is, however, an ideal that we can sometimes fulfill through counciling, re-education of criminals, supplying them with a new job or resources, etc. as opposed to treating them like scum and giving them nothing useful for when they're finally let out again.

[devonin]

Re: What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

Does materalism contradict the idea that many people have that there should be justice.

There's a bit of a cognotive disconnect here. How would that be a contradiction of something you know to be true? People -do- have the idea that there should be 'justice' so there's nothing contradictory going on.

What you're saying really, I suppose is, "Does materialism mean that a desire for 'justice' is nonsensical, because there's no such thing as 'justice'" to which the answer is "There's no -objective- basis for the -source- of the justice people have formulated, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is nonsense."

People mutually decide on a set of rules and consequences, elects people to enforce and police those rules, and mete out those consequences, at which time it really doesn't matter what the basis was for why they did so.

It doesn't matter whether morals come from religion, or social contract, or a drunken fever dream, when someone with the desire and ability to punish you decides to exercise that power.

[Tokzic]

Re: What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

Justice to me is so important. I feel like justice is built in to us as human beings.

I find it strange when people use justice as a word that has some grandeur to it when it's a very simple concept.

Yes, justice is built-in to humans, but justice is selfish ultimately. The idea is, "I don't want to be killed, so it is a very good idea to not kill anyone else, as this will increase the chances of it happening to me." And thus social norms are created. Justice is built in because human beings don't like dying, pain, hunger, etc., and it is the system that minimizes these things.


I find it funny when people consider a god to be the ultimate judge of what is just, though. Our morals are based on what we do like and don't like done to us. If an ultimate creator even put pain, hunger, death, etc. into the system it created itself, then clearly these things are totally dandy. Or else, why create them? Why even create wrong?

A god should be the last entity to care about what you do because it is the one who gave you the opportunity to do it in the first place.

[windsurfer-sp]

Re: What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

Tokzic:
The argument is there to be made that God created humans, humans in turn created evil. In which case yes God created something that created evil, but that does not inherently make God evil.

If you then go down the path of why did God create the potential for evil the simple response is with out free will, we are all just robots and none of the positives of human existence would have any meaning.

As for your idea of justice just being selfish, is an interesting one.
However I believe that true justice comes from the viewpoint of love. Thus meaning that it is not "I don't want this to happen to me" but "I don't ever want this to happen to anyone, because I care for them."

I guess you can see the later as having an ulitamitly selfish in means. But that would beg the question as to why someone would die to protect justice.

Why would someone take on all of the evils that justice fights against if he simply wants justice to protect himself from those evils?

Devonin:
I am aware that there is "justice" from a whole host of human sources, be it "religion" or state or else wise. I am trying to appeal to the idea of a justice that is set free from the deception of human influence. A universal justice. A universal justice that can't exist in a materialistic world.

Is there a desire for that universal justice in all human beings? Or is there at least at some point in everyones life?

[windsurfer-sp]

Re: What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

I guess this thread really is stemming from this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_morality

All forms of the moral argument begin with the premise of moral normativity, that is, that well-functioning human beings are typically aware of actions as being right and wrong. Furthermore, this awareness binds them to certain obligations, regardless of their personal goals and ends. In this sense, moral qualities have the appearance of objectivity: when someone says "I ought to do something" they do not mean the same as "I would like to do something". Another aspect of this is that a proposition such as "torturing babies for fun is wrong" is generally regarded as a statement of fact, a position known as moral realism.
In its most general form, the moral argument is that:
1. Some aspect of Morality (e.g., its objective force) is observed.
2. Belief in God provides a better explanation of this feature than various alternatives.
3. Therefore, to the extent that (1) is accepted, belief in God is preferable to these alternatives

So in some way I was trying to flesh out arguments against point 1. I wanted to hear what other rational thinkers thought.

[devonin]

Re: What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

I am aware that there is "justice" from a whole host of human sources, be it "religion" or state or else wise. I am trying to appeal to the idea of a justice that is set free from the deception of human influence. A universal justice. A universal justice that can't exist in a materialistic world.

Is there a desire for that universal justice in all human beings? Or is there at least at some point in everyones life?

A universal justice requires an objective preexisting source of moral "right" to exist. For religious people that it God, it is very difficult to suggest an objective source for universal morals/justice unless you basically boil it down to a general principle like "Actions are good which serve to counter entropy" or something. Not that such a thing carries all that much by way of usefulness to ones daily life.

[lil_klutzy_foot]

Re: What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

If someone really wants to they will. Personally, hurting another person just doesn't feel right to me so I'm not going to go through with it. And another reason would be I simply don't want to anyways. It wouldn't make me feel any better about life than I already feel about it.

[dsliscoo]

Re: What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

Ok, so far we have concluded:
If there is only materialism then there is nothing to stop someone from doing wrong.

From this:
How does this effect the idea of materialism? Does materalism contradict the idea that many people have that there should be justice. That ultimately no crime should go unpunished.

Where are you trying to take this? Survival is materialistic, it is the outter bounds for why people don't do whatever they impulse. I do not see how you say survival is an invalid excuse. I would throw myself in front of trains to see how it would feel if it didnt kill me.

The longing for "justice" in the world you are trying to get at is cause and effect. Every action has reactions. it has been programmed into us through genes and through society. Other then that unless your trying to find concrete proof in a higher being by trying to decipher justice? I think there is easier ways to do it.

Law is trying to make unfavorable conditions taken out of society, and hopefully what they are aiming for is the general good of all.

[richhhhhard]

Re: What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

It seems like this got much more complicated than was necessary. Every action that a person makes IS, in the end, for themselves. What "stops" you from doing bad is either the fear of punishment or the fear of losing a reward. This is how we train animals, this is how we teach children, this is how we ourselves were taught. Justice is just a form of punishment. Religion is a form of reward, if followed, or punishment if disobeyed. It is the same for school, work, relationships... It is just how we work. Just look at racism. Less than 100 years ago it was considered "right" to be able to own people because of their skin color. Now it is considered awful, but many of the older people in our society, that were raised in that time, still show clear signs of racism. People believe what they are taught, and will act accordingly.

It is as simple as that.

[ledwix]

Re: What stops me doing wrong in a materialistic universe?

A god should be the last entity to care about what you do because it is the one who gave you the opportunity to do it in the first place.

A father is partially responsible in creating his son and gives his son the opportunity to act in the first place. And of course, the father also cares about what his son does. So I don't think that providing an opportunity to do anything necessitates complete disregard for one's actions.