Economy Fix or Fail??

[chuckman]

Hello all,
My name is Charles, i've been a member for nearly 6 years now, and this is my first actual Thread Post. This is only relevant because the topic that im going to discuss now is as important as the fact that it actually made me want to take time out of my day to post this and hope that you people out there actually care. So marijuana is a plant, that for the last 50 years, has been looked upon as a drug. Worse yet, its negative propaganda, such as the movie "Reefer Madness" and the Goverments constant denial of its already proven medical traits, has caused the United States public to view it as such. This has caused the plant to become a major contributer to the Mexican Cartel, as well as other major drug organizations to flourish.(as well as other factors, not worth mentioning) Which brings me to my point, Whether or not the plant is legal or sold illegally through "drug dealing", its a 30 billion dollar-a-year industry. With our economy in its rut, our problems with synthetic, drug abuse, as well as the "War on Drug", we could use the extra money, as well time not spent on "marijuana cruesading". In essence, with the information givin, should the plant, not be legalized, but taxed and regulated like alchohol, so that the economy can return to normal? Should it also be regulated to allow us to face the other problems previously mentioned? I cannot answer those questions, but i would love to see what the ffr community as a whole thinks of that matter. Feel free to comment or message my page with more intimate questions or comments ...Live Life Free, and Without Negative Inibition

[korny]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??



How can you argue with this without being ignorant?

[chuckman]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

Thnx for the Help
Nothing more to say, nothing less lol

[devonin]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

In essence, with the information givin, should the plant, not be legalized, but taxed and regulated like alchohol, so that the economy can return to normal?

The reason you can tax and regulate alcohol easily is that the average consumer is unable to make alcohol in any quality or variety themselves. It requires specialised equipment, lots of time and resources. You -can- have a still in your basement but it's going to make a) crap and b) only one kind of crap.

There's enough demand for alcohol of a quality that can't be easily manufactured by the consumer, so there's an industrial niche in the manufacture and sale of alcohol where it can be taxed and regulated.

Marijuana can be quite easily grown and processed by the individual consumer. It takes very little comparative time or effort to go from plant to joint, and the degree to which it is very widely available already in relatively high quality shows that there's no particular need for an industry to come up around it. There doesn't need to be large-scale marijuana plant farming concerns, there doesn't need to be whole stores dedicated to the sale of various kinds of marijuana.

Each person that wants to use it can just make their own, so the ability to tax and regulate it is not remotely so lucrative as you seem to want to suggest.

At BEST, legalizing marijuana means that they don't spend the money currently being spent to enforce its illegality. (The 'war on drugs' deals with more drugs than just marijuana, so that money would be slightly reduced at most, not eliminated. Additionally, the government would -lose- the income from fines and charges related to marijuana growth, possession and sale)

[korny]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

Perhaps not quite as lucrative as formerly suggested, but do you mean to say that all of the positive benefits associated with it's legalization do not outweigh whatever profits the government would accumulate from it's being taxed? Maybe it wouldn't be 30 billion dollars, but certainly a multibillion dollar industry that would undoubtedly be beneficial to our economies current state.

On another note, do you mean to say that you agree with the governments means of income due to the fines paid by those charged with possession, growth, and sale? Sure, it's the law, and there's nothing we can do about it, but it doesn't make it right in any way. Extensive research has proven so many more positive benefits than negative, (if there are any true degenerative effects at all) from marijuana usage and it's industrial qualities. Not only that, but the legal system in itself costs a lot of money to process when you have things like court appointed attorneys to account for. I know that I've never paid my court appointed attorney so who paid for their services? While incarcerated 95% of the fellow inmates had court appointed attorneys, a majority there because of some sort of marijuana related charge, so how much do you think the government is actually receiving from marijuana related charges?

To grow marijuana properly also cost thousands and thousands of dollars. You need proper lighting and all the essentials to make the buds grow right. This takes a lot of time and strenuous effort. Sure, anyone can just get their weed from the person who grows it, but to get it on the level that the government is able to grow it is a whole different subject. I know I would only buy weed from the government. I smoke medicinal. I know the difference, and it is undeniably greater.

[Devilsrejectedsoul]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

I really don't think it should be if we become dependant on just one product just to bring back the economy back to a stable rate; if we did what if the product has a bad growing season, our economy would be back down in the dump again. I for one am not for it what so ever. I've tried it, didn't heal a thing just gave regret.

[korny]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

I really don't think it should be if we become dependant on just one product just to bring back the economy back to a stable rate; if we did what if the product has a bad growing season, our economy would be back down in the dump again. I for one am not for it what so ever. I've tried it, didn't heal a thing just gave regret.

Please tell me where anyone stated that we would become dependent solely on the taxing of marijuana to boosting our economy back into the place it needs to be? All anyone said is that it would help, which is a no brainer.

Bad growing season? Marijuana is generally grown indoors. You really can't have a "bad" growing season. You're biased view against it is because of your "regrettable" experience, whatever that even means.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

Marijuana should not be legalized, or kept criminalized, for economic reasons.

Either legalize it to give the people the freedom to control their own lives or keep it criminalized because its legalization would present too great a safety risk for intoxicated drivers and the such.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[korny]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

Coming from the conservative native Texan.

http://www.videojug.com/expertanswer/marijuana-as-medicine-2/does-marijuana-

Marijuana does not effect everyone the same. I perform tasks as if I were on an amphetamine while under the influence of marijuana, the feeling of synapses firing and such. It's all about state of mind and it varies from person to person. Perhaps not everyone can drive well while high. Not everyone drives worse or differently while high. I for one do not. I'm generally high more than I'm not and I've never even had a ticket before, let alone gotten into a wreck, and I smoke cannabis very heavily. I mean in all honesty, how many stories have you heard where someone wrecked their car because they were under the influence of marijuana, and marijuana only? I've smoked for 9 years and I have not. I'm not being biased. I'm just relating to you my personal experiences with marijuana over the years none of which have been negative due solely because of marijuana usage.

In closing. http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/...ng/dot78_1.htm

[GuidoHunter]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

Coming from the conservative native Texan.

And that means?

Marijuana does not effect everyone the same. I perform tasks as if I were on an amphetamine while under the influence of marijuana, the feeling of synapses firing and such. It's all about state of mind and it varies from person to person.

Perhaps not everyone can drive well while high. Not everyone drives worse or differently while high. I for one do not. I'm generally high more than I'm not and I've never even had a ticket before, let alone gotten into a wreck, and I smoke cannabis very heavily.

Oh? Well, by all means, let's go tell this to the lawmakers and we'll get those laws repealed immediately!

People claim to drive better when they're drunk, too. The fact remains, however, that they're intoxicated nevertheless and are experiencing the world in an altered state, one that is in no way conducive to better, or possibly even adequate, driving.

For example: "I perform tasks as if I were on an amphetamine while under the influence of marijuana"

Sounds great to me! Here are your keys, bud!

I mean in all honesty, how many stories have you heard where someone wrecked their car because they were under the influence of marijuana, and marijuana only? I've smoked for 9 years and I have not.

How many stories haven't you heard? More importantly, though, how many more would you hear were marijuana to be legalized? I don't know, nor do you. It is, however, a valid avenue of inquiry and not a question I'd like to test lightly.

I'm not being biased.

Sure you are; no need to put on airs.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Erothyme]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

People claim to drive better when they're drunk, too.

There is a simple explanation for this: alcohol is a drug which feeds idiocy.

ps did you completely ignore his second link? I bet you did!

The fact remains, however, that they're intoxicated nevertheless and are experiencing the world in an altered state, one that is in no way conducive to better, or possibly even adequate, driving.

Alcohol's intoxication, an inhibition of your rational processes, is absolutely not comparable to the effects of cannabis; it is completely different from both a pharmacological and psychological perspective. The only people who I have ever seen driving high have, in fact, driven better. I even know a dude who meets qualifications to work as a professional driver who drives high regularly. He's ridiculously impressive, but I understand I can't prove that. I haven't tried it, probably won't, but the bottom line is it's nothing at all like driving drunk. In all likelihood, the worst you will do is drive a little slower than usual. I do, however, have experience with performing other tasks with the help of cannabis. I can say confidently after hundreds of trials that I am a better musician, a better athlete, a better orator, a better writer, a better everything after a couple of puffs.

For example: "I perform tasks as if I were on an amphetamine while under the influence of marijuana"

Sounds great to me! Here are your keys, bud!

Millions of people are on prescription amphetamines and drive fine.

In fact, amphetamines improve your performance at essentially everything. That's more or less what they do, so your message here is backwards.

More importantly, though, how many more would you hear were marijuana to be legalized? I don't know, nor do you. It is, however, a valid avenue of inquiry and not a question I'd like to test lightly.

The idea that more people would drive high if cannabis was legal is an argument which could only be made honestly by someone who is oblivious to cannabis culture.

[Erothyme]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

Marijuana can be quite easily grown and processed by the individual consumer.

Not good cannabis, and that is what people want.

At BEST, legalizing marijuana means that they don't spend the money currently being spent to enforce its illegality. (The 'war on drugs' deals with more drugs than just marijuana, so that money would be slightly reduced at most, not eliminated. Additionally, the government would -lose- the income from fines and charges related to marijuana growth, possession and sale)

Sounds like someone has completely failed to consider the implications of the ban on hemp farming being lifted.
Also sounds like someone doesn't realize how much it would sell if it was available at the corner store.
And the War on Drugs thing is an easy one to fix: legalize it all. Addicts are sick. Sick people don't get better in prison.
As for the government losing money due to not being allowed to kick people around over a plant anymore, boohoo?

If the option to grow stopped people from buying it, no one would go to cannabis cafes in Amsterdam. Oh look, they get ridiculous amounts of business! Imagine that.

[chuckman]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

to devonin, i can say that was a very swift reply but i may say not very well thought out...By only using the "brewing" of beer as the example for why its harder to tax alchohol than marijuana, u in essence weakend your arguement....what about the 100 year process of wine curing huh? or the 1 year "aging" it takes to make good Jack Daniels Whiskey? To synthesize hardcore liquor the average person would have to take many classes of training, and would have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the equipment to make the said alchohol...yes you could do it your basement and make A. crap and b. one type of crap....the same goes for taxed and regulated marijuana...if you devonin would take as much time to do research on the actually growing process of high end medical marijuana you'd know that the average person couldnt easilly pull off the said "opperation". Therefore the economy would profit off this because there would be a demand for people that know the actual growing process, how the plant works, what type of UV light to use, what venting system is required....so I can confidently say that we should still decriminalize it , tax it ,regulated it and keep the alchohol and cigs for people like devonin...so am i really butt slammed???

[devonin]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

to devonin, i can say that was a very swift reply but i may say not very well thought out...By only using the "brewing" of beer as the example for why its harder to tax alchohol than marijuana, u in essence weakend your arguement....

I didn't say -anything- about the "brewing" of beer. In fact, I didn't say anything about beer at all. I think I see which response was poorly thought out.

what about the 100 year process of wine curing huh? or the 1 year "aging" it takes to make good Jack Daniels Whiskey? To synthesize hardcore liquor the average person would have to take many classes of training, and would have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on the equipment to make the said alchohol...yes you could do it your basement and make A. crap and b. one type of crap....

So your -objection- to my saying "It is harder to manufacture alcohol by yourself than to manufacture marijuana by yourself" is to say "But what about all these cases where it is harder to manufacture alcohol by yourself?"

In essence what you're saying is "But but! What about <The exact same thing I already said>" So yes...that. Thank you for restating as a counter to my claim, exactly what I claimed.

the same goes for taxed and regulated marijuana...if you devonin would take as much time to do research on the actually growing process of high end medical marijuana you'd know that the average person couldnt easilly pull off the said "opperation".

The US Department of Health and Human Services already holds a patent for medical-use marijuana, it was issued in 2003. Given the existing status of medical marijuana in the US medical field, a discussion about legalizing or at least decriminalizing of marijuana (In an original post that said -nothing- about medical marijuana, nothing about the putative medical benefits of it, or anything whatsoever to do with medical-grade marijuana) seemed to me to be about decriminalizing it for casual personal use, and I responded accordingly. I apologise for not reading your mind.

Therefore the economy would profit off this because there would be a demand for people that know the actual growing process, how the plant works, what type of UV light to use, what venting system is required....

Just because something has an expensive or time consuming process doesn't automatically mean the national economy would benefit. Do you have any concept of the time, effort and -money- that would be involved in -setting up- such a system of regulated and taxed sales of marijuana? Even if the ATF handled all the legal issues surrounding it, that's a whole pile of additional training for every employee of the agency, the hiring of additional staff nationwide, to carry out the various inspections etc for quality, legality and so on. A lisencing system for people to grow, a lisencing system for people to sell, it's not like a government regulated industry can just spring up at no cost to anybody.

Additionally, half the reason the "industry" is so "profitable" is that the illegality carries risks which express themselves in a price markup of the merchendise. If farmers could just grow a 500 acre marijuana crop, and ship it off to the processing plant, the actual finished product would be -dramatically- cheaper to manufacture and thus sell, meaning less money being spent on it, and thus less taken in from taxes, and overall just less profitiability in the product anyway.

so I can confidently say that we should still decriminalize it , tax it ,regulated it

Awfully confident, do you have a background in economics? Let's get Q and Carbo in here to provide some economic analysis before we say things like "confidently say"

and keep the alchohol and cigs for people like devonin.

What does that even mean? Was that supposed to be insulting or something?

Perhaps not quite as lucrative as formerly suggested, but do you mean to say that all of the positive benefits associated with it's legalization do not outweigh whatever profits the government would accumulate from it's being taxed? Maybe it wouldn't be 30 billion dollars, but certainly a multibillion dollar industry that would undoubtedly be beneficial to our economies current state.

Well, take the amount of money the marijuana industry makes in a year, subtract the extra charged for the product along every step of the line because it is illegal, subtract the amount taken in by the government every year in fines and charges and siezed assets, subtract the amount that would have to be spent to -institute- the system in the first place, subtract the amount that would have to be spent to manage the system.

do you mean to say that you agree with the governments means of income due to the fines paid by those charged with possession, growth, and sale? Sure, it's the law, and there's nothing we can do about it, but it doesn't make it right in any way.

Do I mean that I agree with the legal system extracting fines and punishment for people engaging in illegal activity? Absolutely I do. Just because you personally think it shoudln't be illegal doesn't mean it isn't. It's still against the law and you make the free choice to break the law so you can deal with the consequences. Do I think it -should- be illegal? Probably not, but ignoring a law is pretty much never the right way to try and go about changing it.

To grow marijuana properly also cost thousands and thousands of dollars. You need proper lighting and all the essentials to make the buds grow right. This takes a lot of time and strenuous effort. Sure, anyone can just get their weed from the person who grows it, but to get it on the level that the government is able to grow it is a whole different subject. I know I would only buy weed from the government. I smoke medicinal. I know the difference, and it is undeniably greater.

Wait...you don't even just want the government to regulate it, you want the government to be responsible for the whole process? Okay, now it's even MORE expensive for them, they have to be paying for land, farmers, workers, owning the processing facilities, staffing those as well, now it's probably -losing- money in the long run.

It's all about state of mind and it varies from person to person. Perhaps not everyone can drive well while high. Not everyone drives worse or differently while high. I for one do not. I'm generally high more than I'm not and I've never even had a ticket before, let alone gotten into a wreck, and I smoke cannabis very heavily.

So you criticized one person for drawing a conclusion based on their personal experiences, and here you draw conclusions based on your personal experiences -while- admitting that everyone's personal experience vaires.

I even know a dude who meets qualifications to work as a professional driver who drives high regularly. He's ridiculously impressive, but I understand I can't prove that.

Even if you could, you're already stating that he's starting from superior ability. I bet Alex Rodriguez drunk can hit a 90mph fastball a hell of a lot better than I can stone sober. The issue isn't people who are already highly competent because their performance could be degraded and still appear perfectly competent. The issue is the kind of people who get into car accidents while not drunk, not high, and not overtired because they are just bad drivers. You have no way to prove that such a person wouldn't be -more- prone to getting in accidents while high. The general logic behind the "high people drive -better-" theory is the mild state of heightened awareness/paranoia making you naturally more cautious. But overcautious driving causes plenty of accidents, not just overaggressive driving.

The idea that more people would drive high if cannabis was legal is an argument which could only be made honestly by someone who is oblivious to cannabis culture.

Why? Multiple people in this thread say they drive high all the time, or related stories of people they know who drive high all the time. Even if only 5% of people who use marijuana drive while high, if you quadruple the number of people using it, it stands to reason that you'll quadruple the number of people who drive while using it.

Sounds like someone has completely failed to consider the implications of the ban on hemp farming being lifted.

Well, we've still got plenty of hemp and lumber kicking around to make all the various non-drug products that can also be made from marijuana, so I don't think legalizing -another- such product is going to have a huge economic impact. Further, you're only just now bringing into the discussion the other uses of marijuana by referencing the hemp farming unban (Random picture near the OP notwithstanding) So far, everyone but you has been talking about decriminalization for the purpose of personal drug use. This is a seperate issue entirely. Once again, apologies for my lack of clarivoyance.

Also sounds like someone doesn't realize how much it would sell if it was available at the corner store.

Mass produced things are cheaper than individually produced things. Legal things are cheaper than illegal things. Why do these two statements translate into very expensive mass-produced legal products?

And the War on Drugs thing is an easy one to fix: legalize it all. Addicts are sick. Sick people don't get better in prison.

The war on drugs isn't a war against American drug-users, it is a war against foreign and american drug smugglers. Addicts are sick, yes. But they weren't addicts when they tried it the first time. They made a free choice to break the law and use something they knew was bad for them and addictive. So yes, now they are sick and sick people don't get better in prison, but they were law-breakers first.

As for the government losing money due to not being allowed to kick people around over a plant anymore, boohoo?

Well, when the main focus of the thread before you arrived was on how this would be profitable for the government, things that would change the amount of money the government was making seem pretty relevant to me. Boo hoo indeed.

[devonin]

Re: Economy Fix or Fail??

Double post to use my mod voice:

Please bear in mind that this thread is in Critical Thinking. That means no "I agree" posts, that means no "one-liner shot taking" and we address the issues not the posters.