Marriage

[sarahxjane]

Re: Marriage

You've witnessed it work, and you think it'd work the same for you. However, judging by your tone you aren't very open minded about the issue. I'd assume your parents came to a mutual understanding regarding the issue of not being married, and simply didn't find it necessary for them to engage themselves in it.

My dad is unable to get married due to the fact that he has been married to a woman for over 20 years now.
They have been separated for that long, since my parents were together for that long.

I think I am being open minded about it. Perhaps even hypocritial.
I'm happy that my brother is finally getting married.
Also, my dad and his girlfriend are planning on it. He just needs to track my step mother down.
( I've never met her and she doesn't know about me )
I am excited for all four of them but not for other people.

*Shrugs*

I honestly don't care how people view this.

My opinion on marriage overall still stands.
Even if it is deemed ridiculous or contradictory.

[justaguy]

Re: Marriage

Which is basically an explicit defense of my supposition of 'Divorce rates look higher because people who are already married are getting divorces because it is now more acceptable to do so thanks to the changing gender roles in society, but at the same time, already being aware of this shift, people are waiting longer to marry, and thinking harder about whether they want to marry etc. and thus newlyweds seem to be getting divorced less.'

Like I said, there are multiple factors that contribute to changes in divorce rate. In retrospect I should have reread your post after articulating my points and maybe I would've made the same connection, but I still refute the idea that divorce rates will forever decrease. I think once this peak in divorce dies down, divorce rate will fluctuate. This is pure speculation of course, but I'm basing it on the fact divorce has become, for the most part, socially acceptable. Thinking about what you said, it makes sense to label the past few decades as the ultimate rise and peak of divorce rates.


man **** CT it makes me think about what i'm writing can i go back to trolling

[Tokzic]

Re: Marriage

no once you enter ct your mind is bound here forever and you cannot leave alive

I don't put much weight in marriage. I'm not a creationist, so the whole being-approved-by-God thing doesn't apply to me. And for people who aren't religious, why should marriage make your relationship any more valid? There's only as much meaning in these things as you instill in them - valuing your relationship is good, but if having a ceremony over it makes you appreciate it more, it begs the question why you didn't value your relationship that much in the first place.

As for divorce, it's not inherently a bad thing. As Grandi said, if you're unhappy with your marriage and you don't get out of it (like most people), you are effectively pissing your life away. Frankly, I don't believe anyone can enjoy one single exclusive person's company for their entire life. I have limited evidence, and this obviously isn't provable, but I'd bet that a large majority of marriages that last over a decade are NOT healthy, but blowing the commitment out of the proportion results in staying together anyway. Which is horrible.

If the divorce rate is going up, that's a good thing, in my opinion. Marriage doesn't mean anything extra, but choosing to end a bad relationship in spite of feeling trapped in it is a very smart decision, and the more people doing it, the better.

[devonin]

Re: Marriage

but I still refute the idea that divorce rates will forever decrease.

Good thing I didn't suggest that divorce rates would forever decrease then. I pointed out that we -see- an increase right now that I'm linking to "A normal divorce rate, plus the people who would have divorced before but couldn't because it wasn't acceptable" and suggesting that soon we will fall back down to "A normal divorce rate"

Just because on average people are waiting longer, and thus ostensibly thinking harder about it doesn't mean people won't still screw up, or have their feelings change later, or decide to seperate for other reasons. Just means that less people are rushing into marriage because it's "the thing you do" and are instead actually waiting until they are sure they want it.

[darkness1477]

Re: Marriage

divorce does have it's benifits but marraige takes work and more and more people arent willing to put forth the effort. it is possible to love someone all your life beause whatever atrracted you to them in the first place is still there you just have to work past the problems that are inevitable to arise since where just humans and wre arent perfect

[1961casey]

Re: Marriage

The main problem with all male/female realationships is that most people enter it with the idea of what they can get out of it for themselves. With that frame of mind the relationship runs dry very quickly. If, instead, they determined beforehand that the person they are considering is mature and responsible and then that they have something to offer the other person then it is off to a better start.
Secondly, a healthy relationship is based on the realization that it takes time and effort to make it work. It involves things like taking deliberate time to simply be with the other person. Making sure there is no doubt that the other person knows that they are loved. (That means saying 'I love you' at least once a day. Right girls? Guys, take it from one who knows: 'You can never go wrong saying it, even if the girl should know better.) It means choosing the other person over time with friends. It means deciding to love the other person even if they are acting like a jerk/bitch. It means shutting up and just letting the other person vent off frustration no matter how silly it may seem. (Again guys, take it from someone who has been there.) It means remembering the little things that the other person likes and acting on it. It means getting to know their quirks and strengths. It means making sure that the other person is the most important person in the whole world to you. It means that whatever decision you make, the other person is at least aware of it beforehand and that they know you care about their opinion at least. It means saying 'I'm sorry' and meaning it. It means forgiving their mistakes and accepting their apology. Note that nowhere in the above paragraph is the condition 'when you feel like it' mentioned. You do it because it is important to the other person not because it satisfies some infantile need for self-gratification.
People have to realize that nowhere in the traditional wedding vows is it mentioned anything about how one '[I]feels[I]' toward the other person. Instead, it is a promise to stick by the other person no matter what. This is a vow, a promise and a commitment. It is a rational decision one makes. It is based on common sense and a realization that it is permanent or at least it is supposed to be.
The bottomline is this: loving someone is a decision you make not an emotion you feel.

If people were willing to accept their responsibility for their relationship with the other person then the divorce rate would drop dramatically. Unfortunately, we live in a very selfish society where personal wants and needs come before everything else including one's spouse. And when those wants and needs are not satisfied the participants move on to the next victim of their needs.

[devonin]

Re: Marriage

So assuming people who actually enter into marriage with the best intentions but find it not what they were expecting, or not what they were looking for after all, you'd just rather suggest they "stick it out" and "accept their responsibility" instead of divorcing?

So...you'd rather us go back to the days where divorce was socially unacceptable and whole generations were raised in households that rather than being safe and secure places of love, were full of backbiting, fights, and clandestine affairs?

[darkness1477]

Re: Marriage

i don't see how it doesn't apply to same sex mariage but i agree with casey peope arent perfect and they do dumb stuff and u just have to accept it and move on with ur lilves

[1961casey]

Re: Marriage

So assuming people who actually enter into marriage with the best intentions but find it not what they were expecting, or not what they were looking for after all, you'd just rather suggest they "stick it out" and "accept their responsibility" instead of divorcing?

So...you'd rather us go back to the days where divorce was socially unacceptable and whole generations were raised in households that rather than being safe and secure places of love, were full of backbiting, fights, and clandestine affairs?

Actually people should enter into marriage with their eyes wide open. Unromantic questions must be asked before they enter into a marriage contract. Questions such as: Is he financially stable? Does he have a criminal record? Is he reliable? Can he be trusted? Is he capable of self-sacrifice? I grant you that I'm asking from a woman's point of view but similar questions should be asked of the woman. If you really think about it, in the old, old days and in some cultures arranged marriages worked because these questions were asked and there were certain expectations that had to be met. If these kinds of non-romantic questions were properly answered the emotions in a marriage would have a solid base from which to operate, again reducing the need for divorce.
And where did you get the romantic notion that there are any households free of backbiting and fights. I grew up with brothers and sisters and believe me that a week without an episode was unrealistic. We had to learn to live with each other as immature siblings and our parents had to set the example. The home was safe and secure because both parents stayed with each other not because everything was idyllic.
I expect that you will come up with a series of 'what if's' but that assumes that the parents are not suitable spouses to begin with and that they had not done due diligence before getting married. As for clandestine affairs, last I checked only faithless cheats had them and that was grounds for divorce.

[devonin]

Re: Marriage

And where did you get the romantic notion that there are any households free of backbiting and fights. I grew up with brothers and sisters and believe me that a week without an episode was unrealistic.

I'm not talking about between siblings, I'm talking about between parents. "Our parents had to set the example" you say, which just shows that you missed my point entirely. Have you grown up in a house where your parents can't stand each other but won't or can't get a divorce? Constantly shouting at each other, slamming doors, storming out, crying alone, drinking alone? I was lucky enough to avoid that, but I've seen it first hand on more than one occasion and believe me when I tell you, that is not a pleasant arena to be raised in, and no matter how many times one parent or the other tells you that the problems aren't about you, you -know- they are about you and it can really be a hard way to live. A LOT of marriages during the years where one simply did NOT get a divorce generated households such as that.

Arranged marriages worked because people accepted the idea that they could and probably would be in a marriage of convenience not of love. If you ended up loving your spouse, so much the better, but you willingly subordinated that desire to the well-being of your family overall. There's a reason that as independance and awareness increases among younger people, that opposition to arranged marriages grows. People want to be able to -choose- who they want to be with whether they plan on filing a questionnaire beforehand or not.

I expect that you will come up with a series of 'what if's' but that assumes that the parents are not suitable spouses to begin with and that they had not done due diligence before getting married.

My point, which you keep artfully dodging is something I shall restate again in comparison to the above statement of yours. How about this? "Even when one exercises "due diligence" one can end up in a marriage with someone else that -later on- becomes unhealthy." Perhaps someone's feelings changed, perhaps someone's status changed, perhaps there are new factors that didn't exist at the time, perhaps one of you has met someone you are yet more compatible with. I can think of many reasons for a marriage to no longer work down the road despite the fact that it showed every sign of working at the time. That describes my parents in fact. They exercised all the diligence you could demand, and were married for seven years before parting, perfectly amicably I might add, for reasons that didn't apply when they married. There were no problems, they just both agreed that things were not working out as they had intended or wanted, and so divorced. I'm quite sure however, that if you had your way, and they were somehow forbidden to divorce, that the amicable parting could have developed into bitterness, regret, and eventually festered into exactly the problems you say "only happen" when people rush into marriage blindly.

You can't tell me with 100% certainty exactly where you'll be, what you'll be doing and what your various needs and wants from relationships will be even 5 years from now. How can you possibly think that two people can generate 100% certainty with regards to where they'll be, what they'll be doing, and what they will need and want from a relationship across the next 40 years, in relation to the same from another person? That's ridiculous.

[1961casey]

Re: Marriage

Devonin described household situations where parents were screaming at each other, slamming doors and storming out on each other. This merely describes immature behaviour which should have been detected before they got married. This is stuff that is learned in childhood, not after growing up.


"Perhaps someone's feelings changed, perhaps someone's status changed, perhaps there are new factors that didn't exist at the time, perhaps one of you has met someone you are yet more compatible with. " Perhaps the fairy godmother will come down and wave a magic wand that will give you everything you need without working for it.

Guess what: your feelings WILL change, count on it. Your status will change, count on that too. New factors are a fact of life, anticipate it. And there will always be someone with whom you are more compatible, whatever that means. The point is that you PROMISED to stick with your partner no matter what and that includes all these conditions which are specifically covered in the traditional wedding vows. True romance is when you can go through life's problems with someone and know that they will be there with you and for you. To use such situations as a reason for divorce merely demonstrates how shallow the relationship was in the first place. A real relationship requires work, time and effort grounded in the real world of day to day life. It is not easy, it is not always fun, it is not good feelings 24/7/365. It is not a fairytale where they all lived happily ever after.

I know that I will not be the same person 5, 10, 20 and 40 years from now. I hope so. I also know that a true love relationship will not depend on how I remain the same. That is the ridiculous idea: a marriage is stable only for as long as two people don't change.

[devonin]

Re: Marriage

So...you believe so wholeheartedly in the sanctity of marriage that even when a marriage is failing, you would rather insist that people have to "stick it out" instead of making an adult decision to part ways amicably before the problems get too bad.

Fair enough, but you clearly have no intention of discussing here, or considering the possibility that you are setting too high a set of standards for marriage.

Further, you seem to be expressing the idea that marriage is something people ought to be in, or at least that ending a marriage is some horrific travesty that should be avoided at all costs.

What's -bad- about a divorce?

[Mans0n]

Re: Marriage

The only BAD thing about divorce, is that If you have kids, they most likely will think it's thier fault, and (can) will become depressed. Especially teenagers or kids who were close to both mom/stepmom/ stepdad.

[Cavernio]

devonin: "Fair enough, but you clearly have no intention of discussing here, or considering the possibility that you are setting too high a set of standards for marriage."

He's not setting too high a standard for marriage. The expectations he's listed are what society expects from people in general, I think.

Talking about too high of expectations for marriage, high expectations I believe are probably the main reason marriage isn't working out (through increased divorce rates and less people getting married.) That 'love' in the fairytale, romantic way, which we've probably all experienced in one way or another, is what people seem to chase after, and understandably so! Those feelings are amazing. However, those feelings, in my experience, will never last forever. I think we all agree that people are taking longer to get married than before, because they want to 'make sure things will work out', avoiding situations like Devonin described. This happens these days because we're in an open society, (and things like this are known and talked about, and not hidden, unlike in previous generations). This extra time in the relationship also gives more time for that 'love high' to dissipate. When feelings like that go away, permanent things like 'marriage' to a person you're not head-over-heels for, or staying together with that person after marriage, are not in keeping in line with the goal of 'falling in love'.

So why are people chasing after 'love' and previous generations didn't as much? Traditions for marriage are largely gone these days, and with them gone, higher hopes have set in. Not only that, these dreams of Great Love are actually founded these days, moreso than before, in that there IS more communication. The number of people you can talk to these days is astounding. Even people who are housebound have the internet and chat forums and dating services to meet new people on, and to fall in love with.

Also, as to women working being connected to marriage decrease and divorce increase, there're a few things. One of them is liberty. You won't fall in love with someone else while at home raising 5 children, when the only person you ever see is your husband. There's simply less opportunity for forbidden fruit. Another one is that with women working, they're able to support themselves, at least moreso than before. And this means that if you ARE stuck in a terrible marriage, if you divorce, you've got options besides going to live with your mother. Imagine yourself having an abusive husband, not being able to get decent wages if you were to find work, having nowhere to live if you left, and having spent the last 10 years of your life staying at home raising kids. What would you do if you left?

(This lat reason I mentioned, is what a couple of my mid twenties fellow female friends say is thereason marriages end in divorce these days. When I tried to explain things like relambrien did, and other things in my post, they didn't agree with me at all. Sigh.)

Relambrien: I agree with most of your OP, expect that you say that all the reasons you talked about cause high divorce, which then causes people to NOT want to get married. I think we can remove that middle causality and simply apply your arguments as to the high divorce rate to why people don't get married these days as well.

Sarahxjane and tokzic, I believe, have given us, generally, what many people think of marriage. All we have to do is compare what they've said to attitudes towards marriage from previous times to understand, at least in part, why long-lasting marriages aren't du-jour.

tokzic: I disagree, however, that you should question the value of a relationship if you want to get married. The most recent wedding I attended was Hindu. Before it began, it was said that it would be in sanskrit (which no one besides the priest understood), and that it was done this way because it has been done like that for 4000 years. 4000 years!!! There was something...tremendousbout carrying on a tradition for so long. The ceremonyitself was not based on the 'love' between the people, but on that they would share thier lives with each other, much as Casey explained how successful marriages work. The old Hindu tradition was also that the husband and bride would never have met before being married, either.

In closing, I totally see many reasons as to why marriage is what it is today, however, I will say that I think it is largely due to 'love' not fitting well with marriage. This is only confounded by the fact that our society thinkslove and marriage are supposed to go hand in hand.

[1961casey]

Re: Marriage

Thank you, cavernio, for your understanding.

Devonin, when two people enter into a marriage it is assumed that both parties are adults and capable of making adult decisions. As such, the adult decision should be to take steps to preserve and enhance the marriage instead of giving up. How can easily will a marriage fail if both parties are willing to work on it like adults?

Maybe I am setting some high standards. But wouldn't it be better than going into a relationship with such low standards that a minor glitch can destroy it? Isn't that a sad situation in which to be? Isn't it a travesty that such a time honored tradition can't be protected? Isn't it sad that half the people can't keep it going? Isn't it disappointing that so many people are willing to accept it as some kind of 'norm'? Maybe we should all be making more of an effort to encourage and protect marriage. Including looking at ourselves and our expectations of our relationships.