The War in Iraq

[FallenXxRaven]

Do you support it? What should we change about it? Are we benifiting at all or is it wasted lives? Discuss anything about it, but lets try not to get too political.

Personally I think it is completely useless, but what do you guys think?
(Dont forget that there is a poll too =P)

[devonin]

Re: The War in Iraq

You need to provide:

a) more information for readers to respond to
b) some backup for your position
c) a much more focused topic for discussion

otherwise, it's not really a CT thread.

[Kamunt]

Re: The War in Iraq

I agree with devo. Also, an 'indifferent/other' option in the poll could/would also be appreciated by many, I'm sure, since there's plenty of people out there who aren't completely one way or the other.

I personally find myself as a Democrat more often than not, though I dislike greatly the negative connotation that goes along with it. I, however, actually think that we "should" be in Iraq. Before the n00bs lunge at me, let me say that much of Iraq, especially in and around Baghdad, is still in lots of turmoil. Maybe it wasn't our place to enter in the first place, I choose to abstain my opinion on that matter for now, but regardless, we went in there with a mission and that mission is clearly not accomplished yet. Yes, the Iraqi people are "free", but there is still countless acts of terrorism occuring there--the government isn't stable, and many Sunni and Shiite (sp.?) still hate each other with a passion. This country isn't going to fix itself in a pretty way regardless of what happens, but we can't just let all of the hard work that's been put into freeing and stabilizing this country go to waste.

Also, the Iraqis may not be pulling their own weight, either, since part of our mission was /is to effectively train the/an Iraqi military so they can enforce law, peace and order in its own country. Last I heard, we've been trying to accomplish this, but it's clearly not working yet. XP

Here's your start. I've got more opinions, but I has homework to do.

[KilikOdagawa]

Re: The War in Iraq

I'm going to use a common argument. September 11, 2001. 4 planes went down due to terrorism. Thousands died. This unified a nation. But now, our politicians want to pull away 6 years of work. As it stands, this war has us divided. Much like Vietnam. It makes no sense as to WHY anyone would want to stop this. i understand that people think it is a total waste of lives. But look at what we've done. We have destroyed the former government of Iraq. Now we rebuild it in a way that they could benefit.

Let me put it in a way that most people would understand. I'll be using MAJOR sarcasm. Pull the troops out. Let the terrorist do as they please. Let them come here so we can have ANOTHER 9/11.

[tsugomaru]

Re: The War in Iraq

I don't completely believe that everything that Bush is doing is right but he does have information that citizens like us do not have. Not too long ago, we jested at a member from the army who worked as intelligence. We laughed at his arguments because he wasn't able to reveal it. Sometimes we have to trust what a leader does because he has information that we don't have.

It's hard to have an intelligent discussion on a topic like this where we are given very little information. We do know what has happened based on what the media has told us and the media could mean a lot of things. We receive information from the newspapers, television, and even the conspiracy theorists; but how much of this information is true?

So as my belief on the Iraq war is that no one is getting the information they need to help make a right decision.

~Tsugomaru

[ChAoSxxx]

Re: The War in Iraq

Our stay over in iraq serves a purpose we are getting rid of important terrorist leaders and organizations that lead a very evident dangerous threat to the world. I wouldn't call this much of a "war" in this present time although the seriousness of death makes it real. I think of the war in Iraq as being policed, portraying americans as the officers that are trying to bring balance. I strongly disagree with any conspiracy theorists who say that we attacked ourselves for selfish reasons. America will persevere and we are making a difference no matter how much it is.

[Sullyman2007]

Re: The War in Iraq

Yes, we had a slow start. Yes, it's been painful for alot of people, including me.
But something had to be done. I think we did the right thing. We are helping rebuid a country thats been at war with itself for a long time. We are helping eliminate a threat that puts the entire world in danger.
So yes, I support the war 100%.

All I have to say.

[Kamunt]

Re: The War in Iraq

*waves at Kilik* Nice. I feel that way a lot, but I just don't feel like I have the huevos sometimes to just come right out and say it. At least your first paragraph. I'd be sarcastic anyways, if it suited my purpose. In all seriousness, though, if anything we NEEDED to get rid of Hussein. In the midst of the Red Scare, we put him into power in order to keep Communist influences out of the Middle East...a somewhat noble effort, I guess...but ultimately proving really stupid. -.-; At least he's gone, but we still have the rest of our/his mess to clean up yet in his wake...

[devonin]

Re: The War in Iraq

I'm going to use a common argument. September 11, 2001.

I'm going to dispute your "common" argument: September 11, 2001 had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the nation of Iraq.

A terrorist organization based in afghanistan, sent people all of whom were egyptian and saudi arabian to attack the united states...are you seeing "iraq" in there anywhere?

Hussein's government viewed Al-Qaeda as zelous idiots who were incapable of running their own organization. Al-Qaeda viewed Hussein's government as western lapdogs who were almost as bad as America. No link has ever been shown that conclusively connects them except for hostility and rude dismissals of the others' organization.

"The invasion of Iraq is because of 9/11" is frankly, complete nonsense.

"9/11 was used as an incredibly flimsy excuse to carry out a war that the Bush administration had been planning out months before 9/11 even happened, and after 9/11 multiple documents and memos and affadavits of orders have come to light revealing that the Bush administration -demanded- that intelligence specialists "find a link with Iraq"" is not only not nonsense, but carries with it a shocking amount of evidence.

As for "Helping rebuild" Iraq: Cleaning up your own mess isn't laudable. We expect six year olds to clean up their own mess as a matter of course, we don't praise them for doing it, we punish them for not doing it.

Forcing a western style representative democracy on nations that are still highly tribal and partisan is not just a bad idea, it's a -horrible- idea and simply demonstrates the complete hubris of the United States that its way is the best way, and serves primarily to highlight the exact reasons why these terrorist organizations take umbridge with American foreign policy.

Does anyone else find the concept of a 231 year old country telling the nation from whence came all of humanity millenia earlier how they are supposed to act more than a little hilarious?

[Sullyman2007]

Re: The War in Iraq

The invasion of Iraq is because of 9/11" is frankly, complete nonsense.

I couldn't agree more. If I remember correctly, Iraq didn't even come into the big picture until about a year AFTER 9/11. Afghanistan was the main focus of attention during that time frame.

Forcing a western style representative democracy on nations that are still highly tribal and partisan is not just a bad idea, it's a -horrible- idea and simply demonstrates the complete hubris of the United States that its way is the best way, and serves primarily to highlight the exact reasons why these terrorist organizations take umbridge with American foreign policy.

I see what your saying here, but we went into Iraq to help theese people. I really don't think they had anything close to a stable government, and the only way for us to help them is if they do. Or better yet, for them to help themselves. Right?

[FallenXxRaven]

Re: The War in Iraq

Alright, lets try this again.

First off, even though the Iraq War has nothing to do with 9/11.. what happened to Osama? We switched most of our troops to trying to find the man who devised the plan to attack our country, so I already see a flaw with this war. But I DO support the fact that we did go in there to look for WMDs, but we didn't find anything. Thats what we went in there to do, and I don't think we're doing that anymore.

Also, I had no problem with going after Saddam, after all he did commit a crime against humanity.. attempted genocide on the Kurds. But once again, what about Osama?

So far I do, in fact, support the war but we caught saddam on December 13, 2003, yet it is 2007, so why are we still there? Simple, to force democracy on them, and devonin said it perfectly...

Forcing a western style representative democracy on nations that are still highly tribal and partisan is not just a bad idea, it's a -horrible- idea

But fine, Bush was determined, and we got an election in 2005, and that didn't seem to go so well. So obviously they don't want it, why didn't we leave?

So around 2006 what were doing what in Iraq? Besides getting bombed on a daily basis? Well, Iraq went to hell is what, fat load of good were doing there huh? There was pretty much nothing but death in 2006 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_in_Iraq ). And the same for 2007 thus far http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_in_Iraq

I'm still new to CT but I hope I made enough of a point to why I am against the war.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: The War in Iraq

Sometimes we have to trust what a leader does because he has information that we don't have.

No we don't. More importantly, all of the pre-war intelligence that I know of was available to or was made available to the international intelligence community. The UN did not favor war. That's a significant indication of something.

We receive information from the newspapers, television, and even the conspiracy theorists; but how much of this information is true?

Why stop there? Why not question what the validity of second hand sources in all instances? Look, there comes a point when you either trust your intuition or you don't. Even if you don't you can still use silly heuristic devices like averaging death count reports or what have you.

Our stay over in iraq serves a purpose we are getting rid of important terrorist leaders and organizations that lead a very evident dangerous threat to the world.

That's highly questionable. Security in Iraq seems to be dramatically worse than when the old regime was there. Furthermore American military presence has given terrorist recruiters ample new propaganda, Iran has entered the fray, sectarian violence is increasing and by some accounts the US established government apparatus is engaging in genocide of Sunni Muslims. So yeah, maybe not that thing you just said.

But something had to be done.

Why?

We are helping rebuid a country thats been at war with itself for a long time.

In what sense? Under the reign of Saddam there was order. It came with the price of an almost complete lack of freedom and countless lives, but it probably can't be called war. By removing Saddam we created a power vacuum. We created war.

We are helping eliminate a threat that puts the entire world in danger.

Explain.

So yes, I support the war 100%.

So you support aspects of the war such as the occasional soldiers decision to shoot an innocent man and plant a weapon and shovel on him?


Ok, my take. This isn't a war, it's an occupation which is encountering organized and deeply entrenched guerrilla fighters, representing a variety of religious, national, and cultural interests including those of Iranian government and known terrorist groups. Zarqawi was killed not long ago, for instance. He represents a non-iraqi interest, but thankfully in a perverse sort of way the active militants of Iraq are still mostly of Iraqi interest.

The US created a power vacuum. If we left now Shiite Iraqi clerics would likely end up creating a new government, not democratic in nature. That is if the Iranians didn't step in as apparently they promised to do in such an instance. In either case the Sunni muslims of the region would likely suffer tremendous violence against them. The Kurds, although armed to the teeth and experienced fighters, would probably have a hard time in their inevitable attempt to establish an independent Kurdistan.

One more thing. When the American military presence leaves Iraq, so too will the people actually doing all the important work; contracted mercenaries. If it was just the American military leaving it wouldn't be that big a deal, but since PMC's; at least the legally sanctioned variety; are to my knowledge not allowed under international law to operate without fulfilling special conditions, Kurds especially will suffer a dramatic loss in military power.

It would probably still be sound to withdraw at this point, all things considered, but these days there's likely no way to do anything without dramatic losses. There were plenty of opportunities to prevent where we ended up today, even after the invasion. We could have actually allowed international rebuilding to occur instead of restricting rebuilders to Americans. That would likely have alleviated certain tensions or at least spread the weight of the tensions along a broader base. Unfortunately, whatever is decided from this point on will almost inevitably be remembered as a wrong decision because it will have clear and dramatic costs.

[Kamunt]

Re: The War in Iraq

I see what your saying here, but we went into Iraq to help theese people. I really don't think they had anything close to a stable government, and the only way for us to help them is if they do. Or better yet, for them to help themselves. Right?

Yeah, Sully, "America's" attitude towards Iraq seems to be "We need to help them to help themselves." Which I can understand and appreciate, no doubt, but it could obviously be debated how well this is going, and how much progress the Iraqis are even making towards this goal.

Does anyone else find the concept of a 231 year old country telling the nation from whence came all of humanity millenia earlier how they are supposed to act more than a little hilarious?

This is mostly irrelevant, but what's funny to me is that I was under the impression that all human life began in Africa.

EDIT for Kilroy-age.

That's highly questionable. Security in Iraq seems to be dramatically worse than when the old regime was there. Furthermore American military presence has given terrorist recruiters ample new propaganda, Iran has entered the fray, sectarian violence is increasing and by some accounts the US established government apparatus is engaging in genocide of Sunni Muslims. So yeah, maybe not that thing you just said.

Good to see you're still as big of a dick as ever, Kilroy. I've missed this forum so.

In what sense? Under the reign of Saddam there was order. It came with the price of an almost complete lack of freedom and countless lives, but it probably can't be called war. By removing Saddam we created a power vacuum. We created war.

You said it yourself: the Iraqi citizens had nearly no freedom, and their insane dictator killed countless thousands of his own people. This is just me, but I would rather live knowing that my country is trying to be fixed, rather than live knowing that saying the wrong thing in the wrong place (read: just about anywhere outside the home) could get me killed within the week. It's just me, again. I could innocently die either way, but I'd still rather die knowing that soon, my country's peoples could live without so much of the same death I had just experienced for the last time.

So you support aspects of the war such as the occasional soldiers decision to shoot an innocent man and plant a weapon and shovel on him?

Yup. Still a dick. Just be rational, Kilroy: he CLEARLY doesn't mean he supports such actions, who in their right mind would? He supports 100% the War and its purpose, not the retarded actions of the demented few.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: The War in Iraq

You said it yourself: the Iraqi citizens had nearly no freedom, and their insane dictator killed countless thousands of his own people. This is just me, but I would rather live knowing that my country is trying to be fixed, rather than live knowing that saying the wrong thing in the wrong place (read: just about anywhere outside the home) could get me killed within the week.

That's not the contention. The claim was made that Iraq was in a state of constant war. That claim was false.

Yup. Still a dick. Just be rational, Kilroy: he CLEARLY doesn't mean he supports such actions, who in their right mind would? He supports 100% the War and its purpose, not the retarded actions of the demented few.

The retarded actions of the demented few constitute individual units of the larger object "war". You can't say "I support the war 100%" and not support something which is part of the war, it's definitionally incoherent.

[Kamunt]

Re: The War in Iraq

That's not the contention. The claim was made that Iraq was in a state of constant war. That claim was false.

Oops, that was my bad, then. I totally misread there, and wasted my time taka-taka-ing that out.

The retarded actions of the demented few constitute individual units of the larger object "war". You can't say "I support the war 100%" and not support something which is part of the war, it's definitionally incoherent.

If you are going to be persistent, then what percentage would you suppose constitutes "I support the war completely except for the the retarded actions of the demented few"? I'm going with 96% as a preliminary estimate.