What's a soul?

[GuidoHunter]

Re: What's a soul?

Why can't they be infinite? I think the meaning/purpose of human life lies in nature (of which humans are a subset, of course), and is thus as infinite as the universe may be.

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Re: What's a soul?

I personally believe that human beings can live for ever. I don't like people who use religion and oppression to enforce views on other because it delays this dream of mine. I don't believe that the definition of a soul or religion would be any relevance unless we find any type of proof of existance in either (in which it might still not help us at all). Imagine if you were a god who could live for ever in some heaven like place. Would you honestly still be debating souls or religion (in which case no one would be harmed by your inaction or helped by your action)?

[Kilroy_x]

Re: What's a soul?

Why can't they be infinite? I think the meaning/purpose of human life lies in nature (of which humans are a subset, of course), and is thus as infinite as the universe may be.

The universe most likely isn't infinite, and even if it was life would always be able to expand only in some proportion which, relatively speaking, is finite compared to the universe.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Re: What's a soul?

The universe most likely isn't infinite

Why do you say such a thing? Even if it's true, why is it most likely (in regards to the fact that there is no shown evidence in the thread)?

[Kilroy_x]

Re: What's a soul?

I personally believe that human beings can live for ever. I don't like people who use religion and oppression to enforce views on other because it delays this dream of mine.

What dream is this?

I don't believe that the definition of a soul or religion would be any relevance unless we find any type of proof of existance in either (in which it might still not help us at all). Imagine if you were a god who could live for ever in some heaven like place. Would you honestly still be debating souls or religion (in which case no one would be harmed by your inaction or helped by your action)?

You're arguing that advancement of human progress will ultimately lead to our ability to create an artificial paradise, rendering concerns about the human soul irrelevant? Well maybe, but that still doesn't mean there might not be truth or falsity about any given claim made about the soul. It just means the demand for such finding out through such deliberation has been supplanted by an alternate demand which is preferred because it is attainable.

[GuidoHunter]

Re: What's a soul?

Hence why I said, "and is thus as infinite as the universe may be." I intended to note that the finite or infinite nature of humanity is dictated by the state of the universe.

But that wasn't even my point, so I don't know why you picked that out...

I personally believe that human beings can live for ever.

Uh, explain. However, I don't think you're going to say anything that shouldn't be met with "you're wrong" or "that's a soul".

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[jamuko]

Re: What's a soul?

The concept of self and self-image, morals and empathy, and ability to consciously weigh consequences and plan for the future are more like what I would expect to hear from someone arguing that humans have a "soul" above other organisms, but no one has said it yet, so I'm throwing it out there. These are higher processes that are harder to argue against since humans are seemingly the only beings on this planet that exhibit them to a high degree, but I would still assert that they are simply advanced forms of natural biological processes as well.

When I first posted I was mainly just playing Devil's Advocate, but I'm really speaking from my own opinion entirely here.

The soul is a beautiful concept, but I have to say I am not entirely convinced it exists... at least not in the way it is currently defined.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: What's a soul?

Why do you say such a thing? Even if it's true, why is it most likely (in regards to the fact that there is no shown evidence in the thread)?

Because all observations of any given property of the universe have thus far shown any given component investigated to be finite in nature. Even the speed of light is finite, 299,792,458 m / s.

[Kilroy_x]

Re: What's a soul?

The concept of self and self-image

Other animals have exhibited signs of this. The standard test is the mirror test. If the animal recognizes that the image in the mirror is itself, then it possess some level of self awareness or image.

morals and empathy

Problematically subjective.

and ability to consciously weigh consequences and plan for the future

You might as well take the "consciously" part out of there, it doesn't serve any purpose and is redundant. And then, once you do that, you see that this is also something which relies on an arbitrarily or at least problematically subjective definition of how much weighing and planning is required for it to have meaning.

These are higher processes that are harder to argue against since humans are seemingly the only beings on this planet that exhibit them to a high degree, but I would still assert that they are simply advanced forms of natural biological processes as well.

They are. Every one of them is reducible to explainable processes. Reciprocal altruism can explain morals and empathy, for example. Also, what of human beings who exhibit less or no empathy? Do they not have souls?

[Kilroy_x]

Re: What's a soul?

But that wasn't even my point, so I don't know why you picked that out...

Perhaps you would care to clarify your point then, because I have no idea what it is.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Re: What's a soul?

What dream is this?

Well I can understand that you may have not clearly understood that living for ever is one of my goals, but I tried to imply that the second sentence was linked with the first.

You're arguing that advancement of human progress will ultimately lead to our ability to create an artificial paradise, rendering concerns about the human soul irrelevant? Well maybe, but that still doesn't mean there might not be truth or falsity about any given claim made about the soul. It just means the demand for such finding out through such deliberation has been supplanted by an alternate demand which is preferred because it is attainable.

As for this, I simply outlined a hypothetical scenario and I didn't flat out say that we Can do this, it's simply a belief and a goal for me that humans can find a way to live for ever. Dreams don't always come true (even in the sense that they might be false and unobtainable). Also, if my scenario ever came true, I would indeed try to look for if souls and religions had any truth in them, but only if it didn't cause any harm to others.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that humans shouldn't be worried too much about these types of matters in the short span of life that we have unless we have any type of evidence (relevant that is). I mean if you lived in my scenario, you would live for eternity and wouldn't have to worry about death so you would have more time to spend (possibly finding out the secrets of a soul and religion). The word soul itself is just as manmade and unexplainable as the definition of a god so I see no point in persuing these unless you have evidence.

[devonin]

Re: What's a soul?

Souls are what humans invented as another means of asserting that they were "superior" to animals, despite the fact that they are, in fact, animals.

Anyways...I tried to post that bit when the thread was young, but it didn't work, and now the discussion has gone far beyond such simple statements.

Because all observations of any given property of the universe have thus far shown any given component investigated to be finite in nature.

Just as an aside, I like the discussions about the state of the universe like this. Tell me Kilroy, if the universe is finite, you can presumably go and go and go and hit the "end" of it, yes? If so...what is there? A wall? A void? Do you wrap around to the other side?

consciously weigh consequences and plan for the future

The ability to understand the future consequences of actions now is a hallmark of intelligence and sentience, not "having a soul"

[jamuko]

Re: What's a soul?

Master of the Faster: you should watch "The Fountain".


Devonin and Kilroy, I agree with you; I was just throwing those things out there for the sake of discussion on the part of the soul-people, since they were not doing so themselves.

[Master_of_the_Faster]

Re: What's a soul?

If people want to discuss on the lines of the universe I would just wonder these things. If space was finite, would it be a sphere like the world? Or flat like people assumed the Earth was? Or does a boundary exist at all? Are these ideas even possible to explain at all?

[Kilroy_x]

Re: What's a soul?

Well I can understand that you may have not clearly understood that living for ever is one of my goals, but I tried to imply that the second sentence was linked with the first.

The problem was that you didn't explain how. Remember, living forever is a concept used in religious thought much more often than secular thought, so your literal use of the term wasn't as obvious as you seem to think.

As for this, I simply outlined a hypothetical scenario

No you didn't. A hypothetical scenario would involve saying how you expect human beings to be able to live forever, whether by medical advances or technological advances, or some other fashion.

and I didn't flat out say that we Can do this, it's simply a belief and a goal for me that humans can find a way to live for ever. Dreams don't always come true (even in the sense that they might be false and unobtainable). Also, if my scenario ever came true, I would indeed try to look for if souls and religions had any truth in them, but only if it didn't cause any harm to others.

None of that was clear in your initial statements.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that humans shouldn't be worried too much about these types of matters in the short span of life that we have unless we have any type of evidence (relevant that is).

Whether or not we have evidence is often one of the things debated.

I mean if you lived in my scenario, you would live for eternity

Highly unlikely, given the finite nature of things.

and wouldn't have to worry about death so you would have more time to spend (possibly finding out the secrets of a soul and religion).

This is likely true.

The word soul itself is just as manmade and unexplainable as the definition of a god so I see no point in persuing these unless you have evidence.

You realize that I don't believe the soul exists in any spiritual or religious sense, don't you?