Real musicians

[jewpinthethird]

Re: Real musicians

I think it doesn't look terribly hard to hit something with a stick at the right time :/

Try playing a drum set sometime. Moving four limbs independently of each other while keeping the tempo and rhythm ain't no easy task.

Dummer4life, your friend is an idiot. Straight up. Seriously, that is the most ignorant thing I have ever heard.

[EricChiptune]

Re: Real musicians

Drummers are clearly musicians.

What else is there to it?

Some drummers are better than others...

The debate gets cloudy when you move to electronic music... is a drum programmer a musician or a programmer?

He's still stringing together drum patterns...

Anyone who makes music in my view is a musician.
If a drummer isn't a musician, what is he?

[purebloodtexan]

Re: Real musicians

Moving on from the rock bands, think about drumlines and pit percussion as well. They have to remember their marching pattern, our own music, their warm-ups, and some crowdpleasers as well. It takes a hell of a lot to remember stuff of that nature.

Also, as some of y'all should know, pit percussion also has members of the band that play double-reeded instruments, which aren't allowed on the marching field. They have to learn, play and memorize all their music on a new instrument before the band even steps onto the field.

edit: Another situation is when I was picking instruments for band before middle school. I chose percussion as my second choice, and we did two tests. The first test was playing the right "left right" patterns on a snare drum. Easy enough. Then, he did a test to see if I was tone deaf. I couldn't pick up notes as quickly as he wanted me to, so he advised that I stick with the brass instruments.

[mblavis7]

Re: Real musicians

any noise worth listening to can be music.

whatevers pleasing to your ears, theres music.

go in the forest at night. sit down. and listen to the music.

there should never be any debate on what is or is not music, or what instruments create music.

if drums make noise, and someone in the world likes the noise, then thats music to them.

if you like to scrape forks on the ground, then theres your music.

and i think computers can be musicians too. why couldn't they?

maybe im too much of a hippie.

makes sense to me.

[EricChiptune]

Re: Real musicians

I use my laptop and gameboys to make my stuff. Music is an artform, a organised (or even unorganised in some cases) form of entertainment, it is not defined by being played on certain instruments.
Too many elitist people try and say that stuff is or isn't music, just because it's not what they like etc... It's stupid.

[devonin]

Re: Real musicians

Too many elitist people try and say that stuff is or isn't music, just because it's not what they like etc

And insofar as we are talking about their perspective, they are correct too. Music is exactly and precisely: "Whatever you claim is music"

Being an artform, its existance is entirely subjective. To each individual, whatever they identify as being 'art' 'music' etc -is- 'art' 'music' etc.

The interesting question is less "What do some people consider music that others don't" but "Is there anything that is -universally- agreed upon as being music"

[Lucifericrucifix]

Re: Real musicians

I'm a drummer myself and I'd like to believe we are considered musicians. We can learn and apply musical theory to what is really the same extent as any other musician. You can actually place tones for different notes and use similar scales (A piccolo snare and a deep one we'll say) could be considered on different scales, assuming the rest of the drums represent a similar tonality. Hypothetically you could voice lead and all of that..But, it's so uncommon that anyone would go to that extent even in a symphony when all of that can be written in much more simplistic terms for percussion (Unless of course it's something much more elaborate than typical drums, I.E Xylophone like instrument or something.) Regardless, Berklee has a rather intuitive percussion program so just saying that much, I'd say it's safe to assume they are musicians. Essentially, they carry a similar role that a bass player might or any backing rhythm player would, but that is different for each genre of music.

Also, on a side note. No, Avenged Sevenfold does not have an amazing musician as much as they just have one who is skilled in some simple finger tapping, I don't believe their music escapes 4/4 timing as is..Not to completely discredit him work though.

And..Yet again. Speaking in more simplistic terms, drummers probably do the most work out of anyone in a band (assuming the context is a band.) They aren't simply just musicians, it becomes a physical endurance exercise the more intense it becomes. Guitarists might have some complicated things as well sure, but when it comes to drums, you can come up with odd phrasings as a guitarist can but once you break the 220 BPM barrier and things like that, it's far more than just musicianship.

Flesh Field, Chris Adler has an interesting play style, but certainly not one of the best by any means. Dennis Chambers, Dave Wecykl, Buddy Rich, those are incredible drummers. I do appreciate Chris Adlers work, but I find drummers in a similar genre (namely, Mathias Modin, George Kollias, Flo Mounier, and Dennis Röndum) to show much more ability.
..Wasn't aware this was a "Critical Thinking" topic, though it could spawn something interesting.

[jewpinthethird]

Re: Real musicians

And insofar as we are talking about their perspective, they are correct too. Music is exactly and precisely: "Whatever you claim is music"

Being an artform, its existance is entirely subjective. To each individual, whatever they identify as being 'art' 'music' etc -is- 'art' 'music' etc.

The interesting question is less "What do some people consider music that others don't" but "Is there anything that is -universally- agreed upon as being music"

I've been thinking about this a lot...being a musician myself. I took piano for 7 years, and I played trumpet for 4 years. A couple of years ago I was fairly active in a band playing the synthesizer.

However, my love has always been for tracking...or whatever it is called when you use an audio tracker and there are people who don't consider trackers musicians. The reason being that tracking is basically programming music for the computer to play back. I think, in order to be any good at it, one music have some concept of music theory.

But are they musicians or sound engineers?

Art can be defined as a cultural symbolism. And I think how art is perceived is is largely influenced by the culture one grows up in and one's own personal experience.

[devonin]

Re: Real musicians

However, my love has always been for tracking...or whatever it is called when you use an audio tracker and there are people who don't consider trackers musicians. The reason being that tracking is basically programming music for the computer to play back. I think, in order to be any good at it, one music have some concept of music theory.

But are they musicians or sound engineers?

You are a sound engineer by trade. If you also consider yourself to make music, then you are. I said earlier that the -only- non-subjective way you could possibly define "A musician" is someone who earns a living performing what they identify as music. It is similar to the definition of Amateur and Professional as applied to things like sports. Anyone can make music, only people who do so for a living are "musicians"

Mind you, that's just the non-subjective way to define it. If subjectivity rules the day for you (heh) then really, a musician is anyone who can convince someone else that they are a musician. And Jewpin, I've heard your stuff, you are a musician.

Art can be defined as a cultural symbolism. And I think how art is perceived is is largely influenced by the culture one grows up in and one's own personal experience.

Well, my addition to that is "how -everything- is percieved is largely (if not wholly) influenced by the culture one grows up in and one's own personal experience." not just the arts. We tend to just see it as more of a bad thing when it comes to creative expression we like and others don't.

[hayatewillown]

Re: Real musicians

I'm a drummer of two bands. If I provide the beat, then I call it music.

I'm a musician with the trumpet anyways.

[u84]

Re: Real musicians

Drummers are definitely real musicians. Here is a link to a musician who has multiple CDs out. All of them sound amazing and there is a sample for them here:

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/tonyvacca1

Most of his stuff is only by him. All the drumming instruments, including the xylophone, are done by him. Even that little whistle in the background of some of them. The singing is also him.

[Sir_Thomas]

Re: Real musicians

I've been thinking about this a lot...being a musician myself. I took piano for 7 years, and I played trumpet for 4 years. A couple of years ago I was fairly active in a band playing the synthesizer.

However, my love has always been for tracking...or whatever it is called when you use an audio tracker and there are people who don't consider trackers musicians. The reason being that tracking is basically programming music for the computer to play back. I think, in order to be any good at it, one music have some concept of music theory.

But are they musicians or sound engineers?

Art can be defined as a cultural symbolism. And I think how art is perceived is is largely influenced by the culture one grows up in and one's own personal experience.

I would say trackers are by far musicians. It takes an extreme ammount of musical theory or raw talent to use... almost moreso than instruments. With a piano, when I make something up, I can easily feel around for the notes im looking for. Its not as simple with tracking. With tracking, from what I understand during my experiments and such, you kind of have to know exactly what you are going for, what sound you want, and how to get it.

Saying trackers arent musicians is like saying a pianist isnt one.
Just because the instrument is more complicated, doesnt mean it doesnt count.

[hayatewillown]

Re: Real musicians

I would say trackers are by far musicians. It takes an extreme ammount of musical theory or raw talent to use... almost moreso than instruments. With a piano, when I make something up, I can easily feel around for the notes im looking for. Its not as simple with tracking. With tracking, from what I understand during my experiments and such, you kind of have to know exactly what you are going for, what sound you want, and how to get it.

Saying trackers arent musicians is like saying a pianist isnt one.
Just because the instrument is more complicated, doesnt mean it doesnt count.

Yeah I think music theory really plays a big role. Especially with a synthesizer. You can hear the beats string in together and even make some great noise.

Still, drummers are musicians, because they have a rhythm and make noise. That noise is usually sonorous ( sounds good I think that is what that means ) because it provides the beat.

I don't know.

[Wlfwnd91]

Re: Real musicians

I believe a musician is anyone who creates their own music with heart in it. Now, whether someone puts heart in their music is difficult to tell. I believe I can hear when someone has passion and when someone doesn't, but there's no way to tell for sure.

If you can play fast and keep an amazing beat, but you're just playing what's written for you to play, then I don't believe you're a musician. If you write your own music from your soul then I beleive you are. I've heard percussion bands that have created worlds of sound, so I know it can be done. There are some drummers who aren't musicians (in my definition of the word) and some drummers who are. There are also guitarists, bassists, vocalists, brass and woodwind players as well who aren't musicians, even if they've been playing 10 years. And I know people who have played 10 months and are greater musicians.

This is all in my definition of the word, and it's all subjective, as Devonin is saying. As for what's art and what isn't, that's something that's defined by the person viewing it and ONLY them. I don't think there's any common ground between EVERYONE on what art is.

[devonin]

Re: Real musicians

I don't think there's any common ground between EVERYONE on what art is.

It is, though, interesting to note some of the iconic examples of artforms that virtually everyone in a culture will identify as being such, even if they don't particularly like it.

The Mona Lisa, Beethoven's 4th and 9th symphonies, etc etc. They've just somehow entered the collective consciousness as being -art- and in such cases, being -good- art even though we all freely admit how subjective such things are.