On Drug Use

[aperson]

Re: On Drug Use

Laws basically account for everyone, even when there people who know what they're doing. I don't think there will ever be a way around that. To say that "those who know what they're doing deserve more rights and freedom" leads to "it's just too bad for those who don't know what they're doing". However, I do feel that the government has their laws not to protect us really, but rather just based on the principle that drugs are wrong. Honestly though, I wouldn't prefer another system even though ours is faulty.

If it was based on that principle then alcohol would be illegal. I don't see why the government needs to be a nanny that has to watch over my shoulder. It's insulting to know that the government thinks that they know what's best for me better than I do. Additionally, you don't see them making stuff like motorcross racing, bmx biking, or skydiving illegal even though you could probably classify it as much of the same thing: A high risk activity that's chasing a thrill. There are people there that know what they're doing and idiots who don't know their limits and end up hurting or killing themselves. If you put a stupid enough person into near any activity, they'll wind up finding a way to hurt themself, so why the arbitrary disdain for drugs?

And no one is saying that "...Those who know what they're doing deserve more rights and freedoms." What carbo and I are saying is that the government is stripping away freedoms we should all already have based on their misinformed opinions about safety. Stupid people and smart people alike should have the right to do drugs. If you get burned, too bad, there are risks in life. People die skydiving but you don't see anyone racing to make that illegal do you? No, because we understand that there are risks involved and know that those people have decided that the utility they get from skydiving outweighs the risk. This concept also applies to drug use.

Even though it may not be the core of the drugs themselves, I can't say that they haven't negatively impacted people. I've seen people and friends turn into criminals and dropouts over the years, but I'm pretty sure everyone has seen that in some way.

Blame the drug user, not the drug. Who isn't to say they wouldn't have turned into unproductive members of society otherwise as well. You just want something that you can easily pin them on for being a drain on society. Lots of people who turn to drugs for wrong reasons really weren't going anywhere before they were doing drugs. I've got evidence of drugs positively impacting me and the people around me (because of the way I interact with them) so the issue can go both ways. Just more proof that the drug user is at fault, not the drug.

And Aperson, I know you're educated and really informed on the topic but my main standing point is that even though drug use doesn't seem to be a problem for you, it is and will be for others and also (this may not be important depending on your view of social life) people will judge you solely on the fact that you take drugs. Even with all you know and study, your going to be classified and discriminated against because just like there will always be people that go too far with drugs, there will always be people who just see "the pothead" and never look any further. With my knowledge, I don't have the authority to say that drugs are wrong, but I think we can both agree that a lot people have been seriously messed up by drugs and still will be.

Yep, I'm a pothead, people are going to think I'm stupid and that's the way it's always going to be. Jesus Christ dude, listen to yourself. The whole reason I'm getting out here and posting this stuff is so that I can hopefully change some peoples' opinions in this regard. In the 1950s and 1960s, black people didn't sit on their asses crying about how everyone viewed them as inferior people. They got out, protested, and demonstrated that they are just the same as everyone else. Because of that, lots of people changed their perception of them, and I'd say the world is a much better place in that regard since then. I'm not going to sit on my ass crying while a bunch of ignorant people demonize me for something they don't understand. I'm going to educate them and demonstrate why they shouldn't view me that way. If they continue to judge me negatively, then I will just get more vocal until they have no choice but to concede to reason.

You're right though, there will be people that view me as a dumb pothead no matter how hard I try... Just like there are still a few idiotic racists who still cling onto their old-hat beliefs. But when you suppress the maligned views, you affect policy, and that's what I want to do.

[FyRe-AnT]

Re: On Drug Use

Very interesting post, and point of view, very thankful for your opinions and yea, personally Ive seen that drugs have a tendency to make you not wanna do anything but sit there lol, so yea that is a problem for younger folks like me because well this is the time in my life when I really think I need to buckle down a bit and do some right stuff, because I have been wasting what little time I left, but also drugs bring out a creative side to you, well what my friends tell me is that it helps them be more creative in art and music, for me though its just a way to help me deal with society, but I produce music myself, just techno and rap beats. Ive seen drugs take people's lives over and that is a sad sight, but ive also seen it not effect a person at all. I think people should do what makes them happy, well not anything because you cant just go around killing people but I hope you understand me . Also I try to keep my opinions simple so if you have anything to add go ahead, I just throw in a understanding point of view ;P.

[Cavernio]

Re: On Drug Use

Now you're having to climb a slippery slope to get to your point. I could use the same argument to show that junk food should be removed from society because it is unhealthy and in large quantities keeps us from being functioning members of society.

Me and my boyfriend had an argument about the recent happenings where I live about the fact that there's no junk food allowed in school's anymore. I thought it was good, he thought it was bad. Also, are you aware of the controversies going on with unhealthy foods right now?
eg: http://www.bantransfats.com/
Not that much of a slippery slope I think.

Additionally, the direct harm of violent crime associated with the drug trade is all because they are illegal. The same thing happened with alcohol when it was legal, and the crime associated with alcohol disappeared when it was legalized.

I take it you don't go out to the bar district on Friday and Saturday night at 2pm much, do you?
On another note, I really don't think it'd be OK to have stores selling crack or meth just like any other business.

I'm perfectly alright with marijuana being legalized. In fact, you can't end up in jail for taking or using it unless you're an established dealer in Canada; an odd situation for sure, but also a tentative step towards recognizing that it's largely undetrimental.

Additionally, you're implying that psychedelics incapacitate you for a day. Did you know that Crick was on LSD when he discovered the double helix structure of DNA. Beyond that, who is to say people don't have a choice to do what they want in their leisure time.

I was thinking more of a CEO tripping during a board meeting, although I suppose you're right, shouldn't be drunk during one of those either.

Off the top of my head, Aldous Huxley, John Lennon, Jack Kerouac, Ken Kesey, and Albert Hofmann were all advocates of LSD and other psychedelics while at the same time not only functional members of society, but some of the most influential people in modern history.

When MDMA was originally synthesized by Alexander Shulgin, he saw it as a tool that could help therapists with patients who were suffering from Post Tramautic Stress Disorder and sent the drug out to psychologists that he knew. Additionally, the man responsible for the initial large-scale distribution of ecstacy was a standing member in the Christian church who saw it as a way to help people come to a purer, more insightful understanding of their problems. (search for the video documentary Ecstasy Rising if you want to learn more about this).

Both the non-medical and therapeutic use of MDMA were made illegal in 1985 despite the Drug Enforcement Administration Administrative Law Judge Francis Young's recommendation that physicians be permitted to continue to administer it to their patients. (from http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/x_01.htm)

Freud prescribed cocaine for his friend's opiate (heroin or morphine I believe?)addiction, as well as for his patients, in good faith.

From the half hour of research I've done on MDMA, it seems there's not been enough research done to prove its harm. However, the single thing I've seen a few places, this one from wikipedia "The use of ecstasy can exacerbate depression[citation needed] and may produce temporary depression as an after-effect for some users.[17] Some individuals also might experience irritability in the first couple of days following use of MDMA.", and after reading all the chemicals is messes with, is certainly enough for me to not want to use it, and I would not be surprised if well-done studies in the future were to show more negative effects of this type, (which sound similar to cocaine) particularly if used frequently. Although, you know, they could show it's largely harmless.

It's insulting to know that the government thinks that they know what's best for me better than I do.

The government doesn't think what's better for you as an individual; it does what's best for society as a whole, or at least tries.
This goes to a point I thought of raising earlier, and it's that not everyone has the time or drive to research every single topic that affects their health on their own. If they did, then we'd all be rigorous scientists and philosophers. I can see what you're saying that it's a lack of freedom, but it's also a security blanket. (I can't believe I'm not siding with you here, I'm sounding sooo conservative!) At some point, people need to defer to something higher for what's safe and not, and it's for protection. The whole idea behind laws and government IS to protect people. I think it's fine for the government to limit people's access to Schedule I drugs, drugs of high abuse; what's currently classified as high abuse is another story.

Additionally, you don't see them making stuff like motorcross racing, bmx biking, or skydiving illegal even though you could probably classify it as much of the same thing: A high risk activity that's chasing a thrill. There are people there that know what they're doing and idiots who don't know their limits and end up hurting or killing themselves. If you put a stupid enough person into near any activity, they'll wind up finding a way to hurt themself, so why the arbitrary disdain for drugs?

Now you're making a slippery slope argument. I suppose you're of the mindset that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Ever seen Lord of War? (It's a good movie; I suggest it, aside from the sake of this argument.) The whole thing with this argument is that guns make it that much easierfor people to kill people, just like drugs of abuse make it that much easier to **** up your life and the lives of people around you.

And no one is saying that "...Those who know what they're doing deserve more rights and freedoms." What carbo and I are saying is that the government is stripping away freedoms we should all already have based on their misinformed opinions about safety. Stupid people and smart people alike should have the right to do drugs. If you get burned, too bad, there are risks in life. People die skydiving but you don't see anyone racing to make that illegal do you? No, because we understand that there are risks involved and know that those people have decided that the utility they get from skydiving outweighs the risk. This concept also applies to drug use.

Except drugs hurt people in not quite so obvious ways as hitting a tree does. They can be almost insidious if you've not done your research properly. But then again, it's much harder to research what happens when you hit a tree versus take a drug. What you call an arbitray disdain for drugs I hardly think is arbitray; it's a fear of the unknown mixed with an extremely common view in our society, that hard work is all we need, and accomplishment, gain and pleasure should come about because of solely/mainly it. Someone earlier pointed this out quite nicely when they said they'd rather be utterly depressed but functional than be a quadrapalegic yet be happy all the time.
I agree that more education about them would be ideal to simply "this drug's good, this drug's bad", but a big issue are those people who end up doing drugs stupidly, particularly at a young age, are often those who don't pay attention when authority tries to teach them. You yourself said you thought drugs were all bad for awhile and you're getting a degree in Math and neuroscience; you can't use yourself as an example. There's quite a challenge to educate North America about drugs.
As to feeling your freedom is being surpressed by having your drugs of choice not legal, I take it you're not in jail right now. You're smart, and because of that, your freedom to use drugs really isn't being impeded. You don't need protection from the government, or for them to tell you what's good or bad. Not everyone's as resourceful or intelligent as you though, and some people don't mind and in fact almost need a higher authority, like the government, to dictate what's going to hurt them and what's not. Then there's everyone else, who, if they had the time and urge to, would learn about them. But that would require, as I said, time.

[Cavernio]

Re: On Drug Use

My bad for double post, but this is significantly different to merit one I think.

I was just thinking about how I personally would be affected if all drugs were legal, and there'd be an easier way of getting them than knowing the right people (which I don't at all, and don't particularly want to know). Like if I could go to a store and get them. I'd probably either be dead or be being looked after because I'd have ****ed up myself badly. I think I'm far better off alive and kicking.

[frankiesmithra24]

Re: On Drug Use

Drug abuse is very dangerous and so is alcohol poisoning.

[doob10163]

Re: On Drug Use

I'm considering buying LSD. What are some things I should do to ensure that what I'm buying is worth it? Tests, etc. This will also be my first trip, I understand that I am risking a bad one and have read everything about the drug. Any tips?

[devonin]

Re: On Drug Use

I'm considering buying LSD. What are some things I should do to ensure that what I'm buying is worth it? Tests, etc. This will also be my first trip, I understand that I am risking a bad one and have read everything about the drug. Any tips?

Yes: Tip 1: Asking in a public forum for information about illegal goods is not a very smart plan.

Actually I guess it was just the one tip.

[aperson]

Re: On Drug Use

Me and my boyfriend had an argument about the recent happenings where I live about the fact that there's no junk food allowed in school's anymore. I thought it was good, he thought it was bad. Also, are you aware of the controversies going on with unhealthy foods right now?
eg: http://www.bantransfats.com/
Not that much of a slippery slope I think.

This is another issue entirely, and I don't want to delve into it because the issue is only as strong as the analogy is, but the idea of banning a food is absolutely idiotic. If there's one thing we've shown, it's that we don't have a complete understanding of how nutrition works, and I wouldn't be surprised if our bodies needed trans fats in some kind of small quantity. After all, look at how good of a job the government did at creating a healthy America after they started touting their ludicrous food pyramid. When people started viewing all fats as bad they started wrecking their bodies because they didn't understand how their bodies worked.

I take it you don't go out to the bar district on Friday and Saturday night at 2pm much, do you?

I live on a college campus where drinking is allowed, underage drinking is practically encouraged, and the individual residence halls buy kegs on the college budget for parties (Rice University). I think I have a bit of an idea about how alcohol affects people. And if there's one thing it's showed me, there is a group of idiots that run around being obnoxious twats when they are drunk and there is a group of people that are reasonable and sane when they're drunk. Mostly, the gap between these two groups deals with how well each person knows their limits and how responsible of a drug user each person is. The mass of anecdotal evidence I've seen with alcohol use points to the fact that it's the drug user that's responsible for the outcome of the drug use.

On another note, I really don't think it'd be OK to have stores selling crack or meth just like any other business.

How about a background check before you buy either? We have background checks before we sell someone a gun; I don't see why we can't institute some kind of responsibility background check for something like drugs. Granted, I don't think many people who pass the background check would be buying either, but that sounds like a problem that solves itself. As long as the government has a sane metric (i.e. an evaluation of your knowledge on the drugs) I have no problem with it.

Freud prescribed cocaine for his friend's opiate (heroin or morphine I believe?)addiction, as well as for his patients, in good faith.

Freud is an idiot who has had almost all of his works refuted. Even then, the situations aren't analogous. Freud wasn't even attempting to do research on cocaine, he was doling it out to treat addiction, and he liked to use it a lot himself. Shulgin sent the drug out to psychological circles and the psychologists noticed that MDMA was good for letting people address the issues which caused PTSD without letting the person get wrapped up in the negative trainwreck of thought that was usually associated with even trying to address the source of the PTSD. MDMA was banned before anything conclusive was able to come of this study, so the jury is still out on this issue because the government decided it'd be better to suppress scientific research via unwarranted emergency scheduling (It got shipped straight up to schedule I. They didn't even have the brains or tact to make it schedule II or III to open it up for research. How's that for a government that's looking out for your/society's best interests?)

From the half hour of research I've done on MDMA, it seems there's not been enough research done to prove its harm. However, the single thing I've seen a few places, this one from wikipedia "The use of ecstasy can exacerbate depression[citation needed] and may produce temporary depression as an after-effect for some users.[17] Some individuals also might experience irritability in the first couple of days following use of MDMA.", and after reading all the chemicals is messes with, is certainly enough for me to not want to use it, and I would not be surprised if well-done studies in the future were to show more negative effects of this type, (which sound similar to cocaine) particularly if used frequently. Although, you know, they could show it's largely harmless.

Cocaine doesn't affect serotonin levels like MDMA does. Because MDMA causes a serotonin rush, there will be a shock in homeostasis after the drug leaves the body. However, that doesn't mean serotonergenic down-regulation explains all of what MDMA is doing. From erowid:

In general, neural cell damage can be detected by two techniques, using silver staining and measuring the expression of glilal fibrillary acidic protein (GFAP). Not all neurotoxic regimens using MDMA are able to demonstrate increased silver staining or GFAP expression. These techniques seem to detect MDMA-induced alterations only at doses higher than those needed to affect serotonergic function (Commins, 1987; O'Callaghan, 1993). Furthermore, the MDMA-induced cell damage detected by silver staining appears to occur in nonserotonergic cells (Commins, 1987; Jensen, 1993) as well as in what are likely serotonergic axons (Scallet, 1988). These inconsistencies are difficult to interpret. Some believe they are evidence that MDMA-induced serotonergic changes result from down regulation of the serotonergic system rather than damage (e.g., O'Callaghan, 2001). Others have argued that the techniques for measuring cell damage are simply insensitive to selective serotonergic damage (Axt, 1994; Bendotti, 1994; Wilson, 1994).

Because studies of axonal transport and VMAT2 changes have provided strong evidence of MDMA-induced axonal damage, it appears that serotonergic down regulation can no longer fully explain the long-term effects of MDMA. Structural changes to serotonergic axons must also be explained. Although we are not aware that this hypothesis has been advanced, one could argue that loss of axons represents a non-neurotoxic form of neuroplasticity, or benign change in the nerve cell in response to drugs. Non-neurotoxic (though not necessarily beneficial) morphological changes can occur in the CNS as the result of alterations in serotonin levels (reviewed in Azmitia 1999). It appears more likely, however, that these changes are, in fact, the result of damage, specifically damage involving oxidative stress.

Solution: Take an aspirin when you roll. Amphetamine metabolization causes free radicals to be released which causes oxidative stress. Taking antioxidants alongside MDMA, then, should reduce the damage it does. The axotomy doesn't appear to be caused by down-regulation of sertonin due to MDMA because it not only affects serotonergic cells; it appears that it's caused by oxidative stress. Therefore, take an antioxidant to limit this damage. Logically, using MDMA all the time is going to shock your body into serotonin down-regulation; however, contrary to Ricuarte's horrible study, no sound evidence has been presented which demonstrates that occasional (more than a month between usage) doses cause lasting effects on serotonin that are not reregulated over the course of a week or two.

In fact, a few chemists producing MDMA are kind enough to put aspirin inside of their rolls. It's good to know that a few are fighting on the good side while most of the idiots out there are loading their pills up with meth and other horrible junk.

The government doesn't think what's better for you as an individual; it does what's best for society as a whole, or at least tries.
This goes to a point I thought of raising earlier, and it's that not everyone has the time or drive to research every single topic that affects their health on their own. If they did, then we'd all be rigorous scientists and philosophers. I can see what you're saying that it's a lack of freedom, but it's also a security blanket. (I can't believe I'm not siding with you here, I'm sounding sooo conservative!) At some point, people need to defer to something higher for what's safe and not, and it's for protection. The whole idea behind laws and government IS to protect people. I think it's fine for the government to limit people's access to Schedule I drugs, drugs of high abuse; what's currently classified as high abuse is another story.

See background check point above. It's the same reason we don't dole out guns to anyone who wants one. But even then, there's a funny analog to unregulated gun use I'll address with your next point below. Also, our scheduling list is a joke. But you're right, that is another story.

Now you're making a slippery slope argument. I suppose you're of the mindset that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Ever seen Lord of War? (It's a good movie; I suggest it, aside from the sake of this argument.) The whole thing with this argument is that guns make it that much easierfor people to kill people, just like drugs of abuse make it that much easier to **** up your life and the lives of people around you.

Funnily enough, there are plenty of statistics and much evidence that states that have looser right to carry laws have lower crime rates.

In Virginia, anyone over 18 can carry a gun. In Maryland, it requires a permit. In 2003, 413 people were killed by gun violence in Virginia, a death rate of 5.6 per 100,000 inhabitants. By contrast, 525 people were killed in Maryland, a death rate of 9.5 per 100,000 inhabitants
In 2004, the rates were 9.4 and 5.2 respectively, demonstrating a carryover in the trend.
(FBI, Table 5).

Additionally, there's the case of Kennesaw, Georgia. This town requires every able resident to own a gun. Oddly enough, signs seem to attribute a decrease in gun-related crime sense then (wiki link). Of course, the other side of data analysis shows a statistically insignificant increase. I'm not on campus so I can't go to a library to check their methodology (i.e. choosing something absurd like a p = .001 level to test for significance), but both of these point to gun ownership not showing demonstrable positive correlation to shootings.

Except drugs hurt people in not quite so obvious ways as hitting a tree does. They can be almost insidious if you've not done your research properly. But then again, it's much harder to research what happens when you hit a tree versus take a drug. What you call an arbitray disdain for drugs I hardly think is arbitray; it's a fear of the unknown mixed with an extremely common view in our society, that hard work is all we need, and accomplishment, gain and pleasure should come about because of solely/mainly it. Someone earlier pointed this out quite nicely when they said they'd rather be utterly depressed but functional than be a quadrapalegic yet be happy all the time.

Wait a second, so you're saying that we should be a pawn to the whims of society? That goes completely against the whole notion of freedom to pursue happiness. I'd rather be a happy quadriplegic than a depressed functional person, and that's my individual belief. Our framework doesn't stress a societal pursuit of happiness, it stresses an individual one. You are not in society's body and your conscious is not a societal consciousness, it's an indvidual one. If we want to make an individual choice, we should have that right, because it is not your right as a member of society to tell me by what metric I should evaluate my pursuit of happiness.

If one has a fear of the unknown then he or she has two options: Make it a known or stay away from it. A fear of the unknown doesn't mean this person now has the right to map their fear onto other people, it means they possess an ignorance that stops where their consciousness ends. They have no right to extend their judgment of this unknown past the bounds of their consciousness.

I agree that more education about them would be ideal to simply "this drug's good, this drug's bad", but a big issue are those people who end up doing drugs stupidly, particularly at a young age, are often those who don't pay attention when authority tries to teach them. You yourself said you thought drugs were all bad for awhile and you're getting a degree in Math and neuroscience; you can't use yourself as an example. There's quite a challenge to educate North America about drugs.

I thought drugs were bad because I was spoonfed a pile of half-truths and outright lies from the D.A.R.E. program. Let me explain to you how drug use generally works among kids: They hear over a drug program that some benign drug such as marijuana is horrible for them. They try marijuana anyway, it isn't that bad. Now they think, by process of extension, that all the other drugs they were warned against probably aren't that bad for them either, so they go out and try the more dangerous ones and get burned.

It's drug misinformation that is causing much of the problems with drug use. The drug 'education' we have today is counterproductive because it is so grossly incorrect. It's not a challenge to educate us about drugs, the powers that be are instead choosing to miseducate us because they're ignorant enough to believe that scare tactics are effective. I'd wager that our youth would be better off if they chose not to listen to the DARE bile, because then maybe they'd take what they hear from other sources in the media to heart when they hear about the dangers of stuff like methamphetamine and heroin.

As to feeling your freedom is being surpressed by having your drugs of choice not legal, I take it you're not in jail right now. You're smart, and because of that, your freedom to use drugs really isn't being impeded. You don't need protection from the government, or for them to tell you what's good or bad. Not everyone's as resourceful or intelligent as you though, and some people don't mind and in fact almost need a higher authority, like the government, to dictate what's going to hurt them and what's not. Then there's everyone else, who, if they had the time and urge to, would learn about them. But that would require, as I said, time.

Yeah, my rights actually are being impeded. I can't believe you're trying to make an argument that because I can still get my drugs and I'm not in jail I still have a full plate of rights. Because of their illegality, lots of ignorant people like to view me as a 'dumb pothead' and will never listen to what I have to say. Because of their illegality, I have to constantly be worried that if I get caught possessing any drugs I will have a gaping scar on my resume which will mar my chances of getting a job. Because of their illegality, I have (or had, until I made good connections) to deal with shady people who have a real threat of harming me or taking my money. You are saying that it is okay to suppress my rights as a minority simply because I am a minority. Seriously, listen to yourself for a minute. There's no way you can actually believe this, and I think you're saying this just to be polemical.

"Then there's everyone else, who, if they had the time and urge to, would learn about them. But that would require, as I said, time."

That's what school is for; we have 18 years to teach them. If that's not enough time, then I have no idea what is.

[aperson]

Re: On Drug Use

I'm considering buying LSD. What are some things I should do to ensure that what I'm buying is worth it? Tests, etc. This will also be my first trip, I understand that I am risking a bad one and have read everything about the drug. Any tips?

Make sure it glows under blacklight. Perforated blotter paper is the preferred medium on which to get acid: It's easy to do something like drip oil onto a sweet tart and sell a bunk product; liquid is hard to dose so you can't control your trip as well.

For the trip itself, make sure you go into it with a proper mindset and are in a comfortable setting with which you are familiar. Turn off your phone and make sure that you won't be around anyone who can't know that you are tripping. Have some music you like prepared beforehand. Though I don't usually place much emphasis on music while tripping, something like it or a videogame can be a good way to distract myself if the trip gets intense or I don't like where it is going (The Legend of Zelda & Secret of Mana on acid = A+).

Acid works by heightening neural responses, so be prepared for your sensations and emotions to feel amplified and intense. Sometimes, just touching something can be so intense that I can't tell whether I'm feeling pain or the nerves are just incredibly excited. Your emotional responses to things will also be similarly amplified, so if you feel your emotions running out of control, take some time to try to ground yourself and think about how it is just the result of a drug that has modified your perception of reality. (This could even lead into some fun thinking about how arbitrary our perception of reality is too... If you're a philosophical tripper.)

I'd recommend 2 hits as a starting dose (two perforated squares).

And as a personal recommendation, I thoroughly enjoyed watching the movie Adaptation on the comedown of one of my trips. (Although there is a scene with a person's head split open on the ground that can be a bit intense). It's a very good flavor of movie for a trip if you want some kind of entertainment media.

[uselessaccount]

Re: On Drug Use

This is besides what I said before but I was wondering where steroids would fall under this topic like questions about legality and safety, not that I'm going to try them haha.

[Cavernio]

Re: On Drug Use

The mass of anecdotal evidence I've seen with alcohol use points to the fact that it's the drug user that's responsible for the outcome of the drug use.

Yes, different people respond to drugs differently. However, drugs put people in a state of mind they would otherwise not be in, and it would partially be the drugs fault.

Freud is an idiot who has had almost all of his works refuted. Even then, the situations aren't analogous. Freud wasn't even attempting to do research on cocaine, he was doling it out to treat addiction, and he liked to use it a lot himself. Shulgin sent the drug out to psychological circles and the psychologists noticed that MDMA was good for letting people address the issues which caused PTSD without letting the person get wrapped up in the negative trainwreck of thought that was usually associated with even trying to address the source of the PTSD. MDMA was banned before anything conclusive was able to come of this study, so the jury is still out on this issue because the government decided it'd be better to suppress scientific research via unwarranted emergency scheduling (It got shipped straight up to schedule I. They didn't even have the brains or tact to make it schedule II or III to open it up for research. How's that for a government that's looking out for your/society's best interests?)

Freud attempted lots of research. I also believe he talked to others about the medical and psychological benefits of cocaine. Helping PTSD patients doesn't sound any more or less like research than prescribing cocaine for whatever neuroses. Hey, I bet that cocaine would help PTSD patients because it'd make them able to talk about their issues without getting themselves wrapped up in negative thoughts while high.

no sound evidence has been presented which demonstrates that occasional (more than a month between usage) doses cause lasting effects on serotonin that are not reregulated over the course of a week or two.

A week or two's a damnable long period of time. And that's only with light usage! I wasn't even thinking about irreversible brain damage.

Funnily enough, there are plenty of statistics and much evidence that states that have looser right to carry laws have lower crime rates.

In Virginia, anyone over 18 can carry a gun. In Maryland, it requires a permit. In 2003, 413 people were killed by gun violence in Virginia, a death rate of 5.6 per 100,000 inhabitants. By contrast, 525 people were killed in Maryland, a death rate of 9.5 per 100,000 inhabitants
In 2004, the rates were 9.4 and 5.2 respectively, demonstrating a carryover in the trend.
(FBI, Table 5).

I perused the cite and found nothing talking about gun violence specifically. Did I miss a heading?

Additionally, there's the case of Kennesaw, Georgia. This town requires every able resident to own a gun. Oddly enough, signs seem to attribute a decrease in gun-related crime sense then (wiki link). Of course, the other side of data analysis shows a statistically insignificant increase. I'm not on campus so I can't go to a library to check their methodology (i.e. choosing something absurd like a p = .001 level to test for significance), but both of these point to gun ownership not showing demonstrable positive correlation to shootings.

Right, a law where people are allowed to NOT own a gun if strongly believe they don't want to, and where no one's been charged for not owning a gun. I'd be surprised if anyone enforces this regulation.

Wait a second, so you're saying that we should be a pawn to the whims of society? That goes completely against the whole notion of freedom to pursue happiness. I'd rather be a happy quadriplegic than a depressed functional person, and that's my individual belief. Our framework doesn't stress a societal pursuit of happiness, it stresses an individual one. You are not in society's body and your conscious is not a societal consciousness, it's an indvidual one. If we want to make an individual choice, we should have that right, because it is not your right as a member of society to tell me by what metric I should evaluate my pursuit of happiness.

It completely IS my right as a member of society. Society tells people what's good and what's bad, what's acceptable and what's not, and tells people what beliefs to get. You're even getting more from me than many people because they don't even stop to think about where they get their values from. People evaluate others all the time, it's your choice to shrug off people with whom you don't agree. In fact, it seems you have a very strong North American societal belief of individualism.
Hard as it seems for you to believe, YES, I think that in this case, it is best for us to be pawns of society. YOUR, not OUR framework stresses an individual framework for happiness. My framework stresses happiness for as many people as possible.

It's messed when the individualistic society goes against someone's personal beliefs because their beliefs aren't individualistic.

If one has a fear of the unknown then he or she has two options: Make it a known or stay away from it. A fear of the unknown doesn't mean this person now has the right to map their fear onto other people, it means they possess an ignorance that stops where their consciousness ends. They have no right to extend their judgment of this unknown past the bounds of their consciousness.

Umm, everyone possesses ignorance where their consciousness ends; poor wording.
I wasn't trying to say that fear is a good reason, or that even societal values are a good reason. I was just pointing out that there ARE reasons why people say all drugs are bad, beyond ignorance of what's known.

It's drug misinformation that is causing much of the problems with drug use. The drug 'education' we have today is counterproductive because it is so grossly incorrect. It's not a challenge to educate us about drugs, the powers that be are instead choosing to miseducate us because they're ignorant enough to believe that scare tactics are effective. I'd wager that our youth would be better off if they chose not to listen to the DARE bile, because then maybe they'd take what they hear from other sources in the media to heart when they hear about the dangers of stuff like methamphetamine and heroin.

I don't have a DARE program. I've had no drug program. I've only ever filled out a government questionnaire in grade 10 asking about drug use and gambling where half the people lied. Yes, if the program's lying to you, it should be scrapped or probably better, revamped.

Yeah, my rights actually are being impeded. I can't believe you're trying to make an argument that because I can still get my drugs and I'm not in jail I still have a full plate of rights. Because of their illegality, lots of ignorant people like to view me as a 'dumb pothead' and will never listen to what I have to say.

Ummm, no, people think you're a dumb pothead because they either think you're stupid anyways, only ever see you or know you while on drugs, or have seen ads or real people sit and stare at the wall while high. Furthermore, I think you're talking about a fairly young, uneducated demographic. Illegality is a result of impressions of what pot is for your current government officials, not what's caused people to think poorly of you.

Because of their illegality, I have to constantly be worried that if I get caught possessing any drugs I will have a gaping scar on my resume which will mar my chances of getting a job. Because of their illegality, I have (or had, until I made good connections) to deal with shady people who have a real threat of harming me or taking my money. You are saying that it is okay to suppress my rights as a minority simply because I am a minority. Seriously, listen to yourself for a minute. There's no way you can actually believe this, and I think you're saying this just to be polemical.

As hard to believe as you find it, I'm not being polemical. You're in a minority because of choice, and it's a minority about an idealogical difference. It's not as straightforward as, say, "I'm black and I'm surpessed". Basically, what it boils down to for me, is that the right that you want would most likely harm people; I strongly think it would, education and background checks and all. (Aside to current argument, there would still be illegal transportation of drugs if you legally didn't allow problem people to have them, and you'd just be making a legal way to create addicts with the legal ones, albeit not so "shady" people.) Blame the people and not the drugs as much as you want, you're just a prick then.
Grrr, strong individualism is a damning concept which makes people think that they can do whatever the hell they want whenever they want without looking at the consequences to other people. Geezuz, your "But it's my right" argument could be used for companies who use sweatshops! If the workers are stupid enough to work there, let them! It's my right to make as much money as I possibly can! It's analogous in that someone gains, while someone loses. It's not analogous in that you don't gain directly from the other person's loss, however, in the drug instance, you would indirectly be causing harm.
If your argument stands for all drugs, then I can't agree with you.
And I don't think guns should be legal either, speaking of accomodating for fearfulness. Do you think nukes should be legal?

For the record, I'd rather be happy and immobile than terribly depressed, which would probably make me near immobile as I'd spend all my time in bed, and then probably kill myself.

"Then there's everyone else, who, if they had the time and urge to, would learn about them. But that would require, as I said, time."

That's what school is for; we have 18 years to teach them. If that's not enough time, then I have no idea what is.

You're talking to a 24 year old, and I'd have to research the stuff myself. A large amount of the population is over 18 you know. You've also not addressed the issue that who I *think* the majority of problem drug users are, are the ones who don't particularly pay attention in school, or even stay in school. Furthermore, drugs are far from static. In order to use safely, unless keeping to the same stuff you've always used, you'd have to learn about each new one, and that takes time and effort.

[sgkoneko]

Re: On Drug Use

Drug abuse is very dangerous and so is alcohol poisoning.

True. But with all the advertising, the education in schools, all people are bound to know this.

If people want to ruin their lives, that's their own business.
As long as they aren't hurting anyone else, why should anyone care?

And another mostly related statement- Drugs should be made legal. The government could make SOOOO much money on the taxes, and it's not as if it being illegal is the reason people have chosen not to do drugs. In fact, the thrill of going against the law is probably a main reason people try drugs. If they were legal, they could be regulated and the amount of usage would probably go down.

[devonin]

Re: On Drug Use

True. But with all the advertising, the education in schools, all people are bound to know this.

If people want to ruin their lives, that's their own business.
As long as they aren't hurting anyone else, why should anyone care?

And another mostly related statement- Drugs should be made legal. The government could make SOOOO much money on the taxes, and it's not as if it being illegal is the reason people have chosen not to do drugs. In fact, the thrill of going against the law is probably a main reason people try drugs. If they were legal, they could be regulated and the amount of usage would probably go down.

It is only worth the government's time to make something legal with the intention of taxing it, if it is the case that people can't make their own relatively easily.

If the more "mild" drugs, like marijuana were legalized, the government would make almost nothing out of it, because it is so cheap and easy to just grow and make all on your own.

It's one of the reasons why alcohol is legal. To make most kinda of alcohol takes sophisticated enough equipment and work to produce that the vast majority of people interested in getting it will be inclined to buy it from the government-approved sources rather than make their own.

Also..."Because they could make lots of tax revenue" is a terrible reason to make something legal, at least, on its own it is a terrible reason. They could make bloodsport, prostitution, and child abuse legal, provide government operated places to do them, and rake in plenty of revenue, that doesn't mean they ought to.

[Aa_Doodaa]

Re: On Drug Use

Well no ****, it's not like somebody is going to write an article "16 year old teen has enjoyable trip, details inside."

Anyway I have a research paper on drugs supporting its legalization due next month, keep talking guys 8)

Haha good point lol.

In my opinion, I still think the same about drug users, 90% of them are low-lifes. Even though all of this is probably true, I'll bet that less than 1% of drug users know it. Most use drugs to ease pain and stress, or to "fit in," not because it's a natural and fun thing to do.

[jewpinthethird]

Re: On Drug Use

Haha good point lol.

In my opinion, I still think the same about drug users, 90% of them are low-lifes. Even though all of this is probably true, I'll bet that less than 1% of drug users know it. Most use drugs to ease pain and stress, or to "fit in," not because it's a natural and fun thing to do.

Not a fun thing to do? Obviously you aren't speaking from experience.