"god" & "Aliens" one and the same?

[denton_12]

Re: "god" & "Aliens" one and the same?

I believe in both God and aliens... however I don't believe that they are one in the same. It's hard to look into the sky at night, into the vast unknown, and think that we're the only planet in the universe that is capable of supporting life. In the same way, I believe in God, and I believe in Darwin's theory of evolution. I also believe that God had his hand in the evolution, because there's no way that natural evolution could have happened that fast, and since the human race has stood upright, we've seen no evolution, the closest thing is natural selection. but that's for another time, and another tread.

The thought or belief of aliens isn't farfetched. There's no telling how life on this planet came to be, but it's near impossible to believe that our planet was "chosen" to support all the life in the universe (or even this galaxy for that matter). They say the universe is always expanding, I don't know if this is true, because theoretically the universe is everything, therefore what reason/way would it have to expand, what would it have to expand to? (I'm getting off topic again, sorry)... but we are just one planet, in one solar system, in one galaxy, there are countless other galaxies, and inside thoses are countless solar systems, and inside those are countless planets... so out of this (what seems) infinate number of planets, how can Earth be it? ... I just don't buy it.

[PinoySkillz]

Re: "god" & "Aliens" one and the same?

By definition 'God' is not an 'Alien'. It is possible the 'creator' could have been an Alien, however, then God would not be the creator, since Aliens are not supernatural. Any other interpretations of this involve manipulation of definitions and a battle of semantics.

It's pretty simple.



You can prove aliens exist and can't prove God exists (to an extent; I.E. you could physically provide evidence that they exist but can't for God). One is supernatural and the other isn't.

So it's kind of like comparing apples and ghosts. No, they are not the same thing.



And uh, yes, it is highly possible Aliens could have visited Earth and done some things here or have been interpreted as Gods. That doesn't make them Gods, though.

QFT. Reach hit the nail on the head.

God/Religion is one of the things the Scientific Method can't explain. His existance can neither be proven nor denied through objective, empirical tests. If it could, then faith would be irrelevant.

And for the record; I think it's pretty ridiculous to NOT think aliens exist. It's pretty high thinking to think we're the only life forms in this great big universe. I also believe God exists because I have faith

[Dragula219]

Re: "god" & "Aliens" one and the same?

First let's take a look at the case of Joe Walker. Joe tries to reach a point infinitely far away. He walks 1 meter, 2 meters, 3... but he can never reach that point. It isn't that the traversal will take a really long time, it's that the infinite traversal is impossible. Traversing an infinite number of years to reach the present is even worse because you can't even get started. It's like trying to jump out of a bottomless pit (as one philosopher put it). Therefore, the past cannot be infinite, because it requires an impossible traversal.

That is a weak argument in my opinion.

You're saying that because a person can't walk to a point infinitely far away that the universe cannot be infinite? That doesn't make any sense, you are comparing two completely unrelated things.

Just because someone cannot comprehend something does not even make it improbable, much less impossible. If I lived in the middle ages there's no way I could comprehend how a Personal computer works, but I could still eventually learn how to use it. To say that just because we can't comprehend things means that those things are impossible is as ignorant as someone who believes aliens don't exist. There are obviously many things we do not know.

God, IMO, is way to explain something we cannot comprehend.

[Wootsicle]

Re: "god" & "Aliens" one and the same?

I don't want to offend anyone, but quite frankly, God is exactly that. Something we create to make up for that in which we don't understand. The Greeks had gods, they had a god for the sea, and thunder/lightning. Have we really disproved those gods? Does anyone take those gods seriously? No, because we understand where lightning comes from, and why the sea rises and falls. If we understood what made life, we would giggle at the though of God, also.

For anyone that says they have proof of God's existence: I'm sorry, but no you don't. The only reason there are different religions, and debates on whether he exists or not is because there IS no solid evidence. Sure, it'd be nice and it would end wars and all disagreements on the subject, but no, it isn't there.

As for aliens.. Well, they aren't exactly proven, but we can more than likely say they may exist. We don't know if the universe ever ENDS, but the thought of it ending is simply incomprehendible(sp?). If it did, what was beyond its end? Total darkness. Ahem, sorry for getting off subject. ^_^ But honestly, if the universe is so vast and huge, and we exist where we are, you couldn't possibly say that there are NO other planets with living conditions out there. There aren't necessarily INTELLIGENT life forms out there, but there must be at least bacteria or something.

The odds that aliens have actually visited our planet? Sorry, MUCH MUCH less. Slim to none in my opinion.

[sherbtail]

Re: "god" & "Aliens" one and the same?

I don't want to offend anyone, but quite frankly, God is exactly that. Something we create to make up for that in which we don't understand. The Greeks had gods, they had a god for the sea, and thunder/lightning. Have we really disproved those gods? Does anyone take those gods seriously? No, because we understand where lightning comes from, and why the sea rises and falls. If we understood what made life, we would giggle at the though of God, also.

You can't just say God doesn't exist, and that I would giggle if I understood what made life.
Everybody has heard of the big bang, evolution and what not (what made life) and yet a massive percentage of people still believe in God, God is not of science, and not of time or space. Thus there is nothing that could disprove God. **Note that I'm talking about a God in general, or Gods even, obviously individual Gods can be disproved by disproving the Bible, Qu'ran etc.**

[Tisthammerw]

Re: "god" & "Aliens" one and the same?

That is a weak argument in my opinion.

You're saying that because a person can't walk to a point infinitely far away that the universe cannot be infinite?

No, I was instantiating an example of an impossible traversal. Traversing an infinite region is not possible.

That doesn't make any sense, you are comparing two completely unrelated things.

Not at all. Remember Joe Walker is traversing at a finite rate. If he reaches "infinity" he will also have traversed an infinite region of time.

Perhaps I should have used the Count Int example.

Suppose Count Int starts with 1 and successively adds one every second. 1, 2, 3, 4… and so on. Will he ever reach a point in time where he can honestly say, “I’m done. I’ve reached infinity”? No, the number will just get progressively larger and larger without limit. He can never reach infinity through this successive addition any more than you can reach the greatest possible number. There will always be a bigger yet finite number in the next second. Because we’re using numbers, this example can be instantiated to reality whether it be distance (1 meter, 2 meters, 3…) time (1 year, 2 years, 3…) or whatever. An actual infinite cannot be traversed via successive finite-sized steps.

A similar thing holds true for Joe Walker. Can he traverse the infinite distance to reach the point? No he cannot. The infinite traversal is not possible.

Just because someone cannot comprehend something does not even make it improbable, much less impossible.

What gave you the impression that my conclusion was based on lack of comprehension? (I would really like to know.) My conclusion was not based on incomprehension but on ontological impossibility. It isn't that Joe Walker can't traverse the infinite region because I can't comprehend it, it's because the traversal is impossible, plain and simple. Do you honestly believe that it is possible for Joe Walker to traverse the infinite distance? Do you honestly believe it is possible for Count Int to reach infinity? If you think the answer is "yes" please stop to think for a moment. What number can the Count add 1 to in order to get infinity?

[Dragula219]

Re: "god" & "Aliens" one and the same?

There is no transversal involved. That's what you don't comprehend. Infinity is not a Number, it is an Idea. Just because an infinite transversal is impossible does not mean that nothing is infinite.

Example: If you plot a point on a number line it doesn't matter where the point is, the number line still extends Infinitely. Even if you can't count forwards to infinity from the point you started at does not change the fact that it extends infinitely.

In essence, Both your examples prove my point as well. Man man cannot count to infinity, because there are and infinite amount of numbers

It is the same idea as time. You cannot transverse time, because time is INFINITE

The whole idea of infinity is there is no transversal, because it is infinite. There is no "starting" point as a time reference and no ending point you must transverse to.

If you respond with the same argument you have the last 2 posts I'm not going to reply, It's obvious that you argument makes no sense.

I'm not saying you can't believe in god and a finite universe. I couldn't care less about your beliefs, but to say that an infinite universe is impossible because you can't understand the concept of infinity is ignorant and, well let's face it, wrong.

[kylehaas]

Re: "god" & "Aliens" one and the same?

I know God exists. However, aliens are questionable... It would only make since that living organisms would appears elsewhere in our entire system of universes...

problem is, how will we ever know?

[TheTypist]

Re: "god" & "Aliens" one and the same?

...i'm not the best typist...

Ok, I'm here now. I hate typos. And I hate wordiness. Grrr.



All right, believing in God and in infinite Universe is kind of sketchy, actually... if the Universe has been around forever, that means it's as old as God, and that it couldn't have been created by Him. So in that case, even if he were there, I doubt He'd deserve that much attention. Not being absolutely powerful, and all.

It's a lot easier assuming a finite universe and then looking toward God. I mean, if God created the entire Universe, He would also have created all the tedious scientific laws we've all worked so hard to figure out and work with. He wouldn't have had to worry about time issues before He created the Universe. Even though I used the word "before," in there. Haha, that's curious...

But what I'd find pretty nonsensical is the idea of an alien creator... since he/she/it/they would have had to be created at some point as well. And if someone/something created them, who would have created the other creator? Following that logic would follow a never-ending chain, meaning you'd have to assume that either the universe is infinite, or that there was a God that started it all.

-The first choice... I can't explain how it would be possible.

-Regarding the second choice, can you tell me why God would have gone trhough a bunch of mysterious alien creators just to eventually get to us lowly beings? Not sure. It's the same end result as a God creating us directly. Just more tedious in the making.

Oh, but you're definitely wrong about one thing, Dragula. Number lines don't go to infinity. They only go from 16 stage left to 16 stage right. And you don't plot points on them; you dance in front of them! GO SHOW CHOIR!!!

[MalReynolds]

Re: "god" & "Aliens" one and the same?

There was once a galactic federation ruled over by the evil lord Xenu. He thought all of his planets were growing overpopulated, so he gathered many, many of subjects into large space-ships and brought them to Earth, where he dumped them in a volcano, which erupted, shooting the souls into the air of all these dead aliens.

Who were then caught by space-ships and taken to a large movie theatre and to see movies on things like technology and religion. Once freed, they attached themselves to humans with all these ideas, and they are called Thetans.

And that is $cientology for you. Pay lots of money to get rid of the Thetans.

I do this as a retort to the guy that said Scientology was credible.

[Tisthammerw]

Re: "god" & "Aliens" one and the same?

There is no transversal involved. That's what you don't comprehend.

There most certainly is a traversal in an infinite past. In an infinite past, the universe must traverse an infinite number of years to reach the present. Do you deny this? If so, why?

Infinity is not a Number, it is an Idea.

Infinity is not a real number (in the mathematical sense) though there are transfinite quantities in mathematics (e.g. aleph-null, which is the cardinality of natural numbers). In any case none of this changes the logic of the circumstances. An infinite traversal is still impossible.

Just because an infinite transversal is impossible does not mean that nothing is infinite.

I never said otherwise. However, that an infinite traversal is impossible does mean that an infinite past is impossible, because an infinite past implies an infinite number of years to be traversed before the present is reached. This is impossible.

You cannot transverse time, because time is INFINITE

Quite true, but an infinite past REQUIRES the traversal of an infinite region of time to reach the present. Thus by your own statement here, an infinite past cannot exist.

What you said also holds true with a universe of a finite age (say 10 to 20 billion years old). The universe gets older and older without limit, but it never becomes infinitely old, because an infinite region of time cannot be traversed.

Count Int cannot reach infinity, and Joe Walker cannot traverse an infinite distance. Traversing an infinite number of years to reach the present is even worse because the traversal cannot even get started. It is like trying to jump out of a bottomless pit (as J.P. Moreland put it).

There is no "starting" point as a time reference

In an infinite past there is no starting point, true. But not even being able to get started only seems to make things worse for traversing an infinite region, not better.

I'm not saying you can't believe in god and a finite universe. I couldn't care less about your beliefs, but to say that an infinite universe is impossible because you can't understand the concept of infinity is ignorant and, well let's face it, wrong.

Again, I am not saying an infinite past is impossible because I can't understand the concept of infinity. Quite the contrary, it is because of my understanding of infinity that leads me to believe that traversing an infinite region is impossible.