A question about gays/lesbians

[Chrissi]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

Homosexuals can reproduce if they wish. They might not wish to though.

[aperson]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

Before we get too drawn out the original poster needs to learn what the difference between 'Darwinism' and 'Social Darwinism' is.

Hint: One is full of crap, the other isn't.


Edit:

Homosexuals can reproduce if they wish. They might not wish to though.

Uhh, if homosexuality is genetic, so much for genetic persistence... You might want to turn your brain on before you come into critical thinking again.

[falconsfan14]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

Seems like a matter of choice, or something sick and wrong happened to you at childhood, like being raped by someone. Or say you grew up with 2 or 3 sisters that were older than you. Maybe you looked up to them, and wanted to be like them and when they started to like guys, so did you? Just a quick thought. =|

[Afrobean]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

afro there isn't "proof" either way... evidence that supports the environmental stance is also all correlational. It's a logical fallacy to assume that a certain position is incorrect when in reality it only may or may not be correct, especially when the alternative position is in the same state of flux.

Point is that there's evidence to both sides, and if you actually want to make a real argument, you should find some that supports yours instead of just dropping your opinion in a vacuum.

Yeah, I have no substantial proof.

However, the fact that the other side has no substantial proof as well is enough for me to assume that my side is correct. Why is that?

Because my side is the side of logic. Why would sexual preference be genetic? Yes, we should all be ingrained with the survival instinct which would lead us to want to reproduce. However, even this can be beaten (suicide, or people who have no wish to have children), so why wouldn't any naturally innate draw to the opposite sex be just as easily beaten, especially with certain people supporting the switch.

That aside, it is shown in many individuals that certain sexual behavior (ie S&M, pedophilia, exhibitionism) all seem to stem from traumatic childhoods or other special instances which result from their upbringing (for example, I heard a long time ago that males who are raised without fathers are more likely to be homosexual than if they had fathers). Why would homosexuality be any different in having it's roots in such things?

And by the way Talisman, me posting something which supports my side would serve no purpose. If you won't listen to the logic I post here and say "hmm that sounds right" then why would you believe a wikipedia article stating something like this:

Since 1962 when our volume was published, I have interviewed about 1,000 male homosexuals and 50 pairs of parents of homosexuals. The classic pattern was present in more than 90% of cases. In my entire experience, I have never interviewed a single male homosexual who had a constructive, loving father. A son who has a loving father who respects him does not become a homosexual. I have concluded that there is a causal relationship between parental influence and sexual choice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

[aperson]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

Yeah, I have no substantial proof.

However, the fact that the other side has no substantial proof as well is enough for me to assume that my side is correct. Why is that?

Because my side is the side of logic.

If logic proved everything we'd all be philosophers.

Actually the correct stance is "Not enough information."

[talisman]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

uh, afro, I WOULD listen more to that wiki quote than your logic. Why should I listen to your logic? Am I to assume that you are an expert in the area? Citing a source like that helps your position immensely.

Btw, I'm not trying to take a position here because I don't really know myself, I've heard conflicting evidence. For example, I believe there was a study recently which found that as number of older male siblings increased, a males chances of being homosexual increased by a 33% factor each time.

[talisman]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

oh and for the sake of debate, the qualifying paragraph you didn't cite:

These reports have been criticized, particularly for confusing cause and effect. In other words, any tendency for gay males to bond more with their mothers than their fathers is more likely the result of homosexuality than the cause. The American Psychological Association has also criticized such reports, noting that the percentage of homosexuals is relatively constant across cultures, which is not what you would expect if parental influence were significant. The theory also fails to explain why homosexuality was nearly universal among males in ancient Greece, pre-modern Japan, and other cultures, or why animals exhibit homosexuality, particularly those species such as the Black Swans of Australia, where a male same-sex couple are the only parents of the brood. Animal biological research is beginning to parallel human research in its findings. The study of homosexual rams (Roselli et al. 2004 cited in LeVay, 2006) [16] revealed that in homosexual rams, the analogous brain structure indicated to be involved in human homosexuality showed similar size differences to those in humans.

[Chrissi]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

Before we get too drawn out the original poster needs to learn what the difference between 'Darwinism' and 'Social Darwinism' is.

Hint: One is full of crap, the other isn't.


Edit:


Uhh, if homosexuality is genetic, so much for genetic persistence... You might want to turn your brain on before you come into critical thinking again.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth.... I never intended that. I'm quite WYSIWYG.

[Z3ratul]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

Actually the correct stance is "Not enough information."

Pretty much.

Btw, I'm not trying to take a position here because I don't really know myself, I've heard conflicting evidence.

Pretty much.

Yes, I know it's not really apropriate to simply 'agree' with somebody in CT, but when they've said the thoughts, I see no need to simply reiterate them. I've nothing to add.

All I can say is possibility and probability.

[ckj846]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

Ok, I was rereading the book Genome by Matt Ridley and I found some interesting stuff on the "gay gene".

Forgive the digression into intelligence. Let's get back to sex. Probably one of the most sensational, controversial and hotly disputed genetic discoveries was the announcement by Dean Hamer in 1993 that he had found a gene on the X chromosome that had a powerful influence on sexual orientation, or, as the media quickly called it, 'a gay gene'. Hamer's study was one of several published about the same time all pointing towards the conclusion that homosexuality was a 'biological' - as opposed to being the consequence of cultural pressure or conscious choice. Some of this work was done by ggay men themselves, such as neuroscientist Simon LeVay of the Salk Institute, keen to establish in the public mind what they were convinced about in their own minds: that homosexuals were 'born that way'. They believed, with some justice, that prejudice would be less against a lifestyle that was not a deliberate 'choice' but an innate porpensity. A genetic cause would also make homosexuality seem les threatening to parents by making it clear that gay role models could not turn youths gay unless they had the propensity already. Indeed conservative intolerance of homosexuality has recently taken to attacking the evidence for its genetic nature. 'We should be careful about accepting the claim that some are 'born to be gay', not just because it is untrue, but because it provides leverage to homosexual rights organisations', wrote the Conservative Lady Young in the Daily Telegraph on 29 July 1998

Ridley goes on to talk about the research and the statistics. I'll quote them for you if you want me to.
O_o

[Afrobean]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

oh and for the sake of debate, the qualifying paragraph you didn't cite:

I honestly didn't read the whole thing. I just scanned for something which supported my side and posted since you seemed to take offense at me not supplying anything.

Either way, I doubt anyone could convince me that homosexuality is innate. Maybe a tendency to be ok with homosexuality (ie the type to experiment with it but not necessarily be gay, even though some of them may decide to be gay), but preferences should always come back to your environment.

[SethSquall]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

Being gay isnt a disability. So I dont think it will not become extinct. I think that now theres more of a freedom to your sexuality. It will never die.

[dore]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

I firmly believe that it is society that causes gays to be gays and heteros to be heteros. At one point in Japan, homosexuality was practiced by the majority of people (I don't know the whole story, I heard it in passing on the Discovery Channel or something). They probably asked the question: "Why are heterosexuals heterosexuals?"

Today, those who are homosexual tend to be more progressive, open, liberal, and against traditional values. We are in a society that is dominated by a religion which believes in monogamy and heterosexuality. Therefore, those who are gay must fight against the norm and be different. If heterosexuality was frowned upon by the average person, than the more progressive and open people would tend to be gay.

I think that it is partially genetic, as those traits I speak of above could be partially attributed to genes, but I mostly believe that society's constraints cause gays to be gay.

[-Izzy-]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

to bad society today is completly not dominated by religion at all. and thank god for that.
pretty positive being gay is about 99.99% not influence.

[stretchypanda]

Re: A question about gays/lesbians

My mother and her sister were treated the same way by their parents, but my aunt was rebellious, got pregnant out of wedlock, married a guy her parents hated (well, they hated my dad, too, but for different reasons), then left him for a woman. Meanwhile, my parents are coming up on their 25th anniversary and, as far as I know, my mom has never entertained thoughts of leaving my dad for a person of either sex, and is really very bothered by homosexuality.

Likewise, my sister and I have grown up in the same environment, and my sister came out of the closet last year, while I'm happily straight.