Stanley Tookie Williams

[Mindfields]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051214/ap_on_re_us/williams_execution;_ylt=AgzLRvXsALFBVLzayrFxfmKs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-

As you all should know, Williams, the notorious "co-founder of the Crips" was lexecuted earlier this week.
Now, many of you know that the street gangster Crips are still around. However, Tookie Williams, while in jail, tried to turn his life around by renouncing his past. He has published several books, and even has been able to convince Snoop Dogg to change his life style towards gangs.
California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denied Tookie's right to live, as did The Supreme Court. Williams was executed a little past 12:00 AM on Tuesday, December 13.
Do you think it was right to execute him or was it right to let him live longer?

[FoJaR]

RE: Stanley Tookie Williams

RIP TOOKIE

[FishFishRevolution]

RE: Stanley Tookie Williams



What a badass.

There's no way to know that he isn't secretly still running the whole thing behind the scenes, or at least still helping. I respect those who made the decisions not being afraid people in power trying to convince them otherwise. That being said, if he really had turned his life around, I think as a person I would've been willing to give him another shot.

(Edit: GET IT ANOTHER SHOT !!!!!!!! AHAHAHHAHAA)

[FoJaR]

Re: RE: Stanley Tookie Williams

What a badass.

There's no way to know that he isn't secretly still running the whole thing behind the scenes, or at least still helping. I respect those who made the decisions not being afraid people in power trying to convince them otherwise. That being said, if he really had turned his life around, I think as a person I would've been willing to give him another shot.

he's dead

[Tasuke]

RE: Re: RE: Stanley Tookie Williams

He killed people, so why shouldn't he have died? Thw whole "eye for an eye" thing makes alot of sense.

[FoJaR]

RE: Re: RE: Stanley Tookie Williams

because people make mistakes and people change.

[FoJaR]

RE: Re: RE: Stanley Tookie Williams

plus he was fucking awesome.

eliott in the morning did a segment on him a week or two ago that was pretty cool.

[MalReynolds]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Stanley Tookie Williams

He killed people, so why shouldn't he have died? Thw whole "eye for an eye" thing makes alot of sense.

Some old Indian dude said something about this. Something about, "An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind."

I always thought that dude was pretty cool...

What was his name?

Oh, right.

Ghandi.

Mal

[FoJaR]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Stanley Tookie Williams

but ghandi also said "Now for the first time they will not bleed other people to death, but for the first time the old Jewish law of An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, will be applied."

oh no, wait... that was hitler's reasoning for the holocaust...

my bad

[dancingmaniac3]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Stanley Tookie Williams

FoJaR use the edit button olol. I don't see why they should let him get away with it. I mean, that would be an extremely unorthodox decision wouldnt it? Let's put it this way. You're gonna let a co-founder/leader of a well-known dangerous gang, Crips, who goes around and kills people for the sake of his own enjoyment/revenge, get away with his murders and violent schemes? If that were fair, then everyone who killed someone and wrote books in jail to say that they changed should get away with murder as well.

sound reasonable?

not really.

edit: by get away with murder i dont mean get away, i mean not being executed for the murder.

[MalReynolds]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Stanley Tookie Williams

He didn't get away with murder; he was put to death of it.

While he was in prison, he wrote books about dissolving gangs. He went to speak to inner city schools about non-violence. He gave speeches to gangs, dissolving several chapters of the Crips while in jail.

They weren't just "some books," either. "Some books" got him nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.

If that's not reformed, I don't know what is.

Mal

[[Prophecy]]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Stanley Tookie Williams

He didn't get away with murder; he was put to death of it.

While he was in prison, he wrote books about dissolving gangs. He went to speak to inner city schools about non-violence. He gave speeches to gangs, dissolving several chapters of the Crips while in jail.

They weren't just "some books," either. "Some books" got him nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.

If that's not reformed, I don't know what is.

Mal

Oye vey.

First off, he didn't write those books. They were penned (ghost written) by a female supporter of his in his name. One of his own layers even argued in court that Williams hadn't written the books. Williams claims to have only been "encouraged" by the author and that the rest was all him. Ironically, the "idea" to write books never occurred to Tookie untill right after a failed prison escape attempt. Hmmm.

Second of all, being nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize used to mean something, now it virtually never does except that the committee wishes to use you for poltical statement. Over the years, those receiving prizes from the Nobel Committe have become disproportionately left-wing anti-American extremists. Coincidentally, people fitting the same description have become disproportionately present on the panel which selects these people. This is how the Nobel Peace Prize has slowly earned the nickname "Nobel Partisan Prize". In fact, some of the views shared by many of the "prize winners" have gotten so bad in recent years, that even the New York Times, an often times blatantly liberal newspaper had this to say about one of the prizes given out by the committee (In regards to Harold Pinter's winning of the Nobel Literature Prize):

The literature prize has in recent years often gone to writers with left-wing ideologies. These include the European writers José Saramago of Portugal, Günter Grass of Germany and Dario Fo of Italy.

If you're wondering where I'm going with this, let me sum it up: Tookie was nominated for the prize as a political statement in regards to the death penalty laws in this country. Ironically, the afformentioned winner of the literature award is a well known inflamatory critic of the US. And when I say inflamatory, I mean he absolutely hates us. Here are some of his comments:

However, I found that to emerge from a personal nightmare was to enter an infinitely more pervasive public nightmare - the nightmare of American hysteria, ignorance, arrogance, stupidity and belligerence; the most powerful nation the world has ever known effectively waging war against the rest of the world............

...........The atrocity in New York was predictable and inevitable. It was an act of retaliation against constant and systematic manifestations of state terrorism on the part of the United States over many years, in all parts of the world..............

............The planned war against Iraq is in fact a plan for premeditated murder of thousands of civilians in order, apparently, to rescue them from their dictator.............

.............It is obvious, however, that the United States is bursting at the seams to attack Iraq. I believe that it will do this - not just to take control of Iraqi oil - but because the US administration is now a bloodthirsty wild animal...............

These are the kinds of people that win awards from the Nobel Committee. Now you can see why Tookie was merely nominated.

Now, onto the subject of reform. You claim that through his actions he has proven his redemption. This reminds of an old saying:

90% of prisoners in jail are innocent. If you don't believe me, just ask them yourself!

Those facing punishment (particularly one as severe as the death penalty) will almost always look for ways out. For Tookie, he attempted escape and failed. If he were to be given a bid for clemency, like persay through children's books that someone else would pen, that might seem like a good idea no? Not even Tookie claimed to have come up with the idea to write children's books, but rather at the "encouragement" of an author. If it had been in his heart to write children's books, then why didn't he think of it?

More importantly, in order for him to reform, he'd have to be guilty. The evidence is so tremendous against him, that no one in their right mind would ever believe him innocent after viewing it. He's been testified against by even some of those that went on murderous rampages with him not to mention many other credible witnesses. He has admitted to a court psychiatrist that he enjoys seeing people suffer after he has hurt them. His own friends have testified against him saying that he bragged to them about the murders. The weapon identified as having fired the lethal shots was his shotgun. It also didn't help when he told his jurors:

I'm going to get each and every one of you mother fuckers!

To say he was guilty beyond a shadow a doubt is an understatement. But since we know he did these horrible things, if he really, honestly reformed, why did he never show any remorse for his crimes? Why did Tookie never say he was sorry for murdering innocent people? Why didn't he ever ask for the forgiveness of the families the murder victims left behind? How can you possibly say that a man who refuses to apologize for multiple horrific murders is reformed? That's absolutely ludicrous!

I don't think you are aware of the monster that Tookie was and the massive disinformation campaign sown with that very intent. Although the movie "Redemption" (which is a rather inaccurate portrayal I'm afraid) claims he was 17 when he co-founded the "Crips" gang, most modern historians state that he was actually 16. Before forming this gang, he had been a Black Panther member and a known militant. Shortly after co-founding the crips, he developed at least one drug addiction (PCP).

For those of you wondering, "Crip" stands for "Community Revolution In Progress", which is no doubt leftover stylistic rhetoric from his membership in the Black Panthers. When the gang really began to take root in Los Angeles, so did their violence. The rise of the rival gang "Bloodz" was a direct response to this. In the mid 1980's Tookie and his gang made a fortune off of selling cocaine. As a result of further increased tensions between the Crips and the Bloodz, a full out gang war ensued and lasted for years.

There were 10,000 gang related murders in CA from the year 1981 to 2001. 7,500 were in Los Angeles and about two thirds (of the 7,500) of them were a direct result of the gang wars between the Crips and Bloodz. For perspective consider this: That's about as many Americans as have died in both 9-11 AND the Iraq War COMBINED. Tookie became extremely symbolic and infleuntial in the gang world. Even when he went to prison, he still commanded large scale attacks and murders. In fact, he'd even order for specific days in which Crip factions in prisons around the state were to kill one white guard. One of his friends that testified against him said that he laughed at the noises one of his victims made while bleeding to death after being shot.

He has never even remotely approached anything deemably remorseful nor apologized for murdering innocents. Yet you think he's reformed? Guess again. You, like many others are a victim of a manipulative game played by an old imprisoned con man in order to build public pressure for clemency and his eventual release. Do you really think that its a coincidence that the leader of the "free Tookie" campaign was also a crip? I'm talking about Snoop Dogg. Thank goodness ole' Arnie didn't buy into it.

Lastly, lets talk about what he really should've done had he actually reformed. If he wanted to send a message to kids that gangs are a bad idea, what would he have to do? Tell them, "Hey I did some gang stuff but now I'm alright. Don't do what I did." in a children's book? There's a word for that, and that word is hypocrisy. Kids are smart, and they're likely to pose the question, "How can you ask us not to do this when you did it yourself?" Surely you can find a better role model for kids than Tookie. If Tookie REALLY wanted to make the point that gangs are wrong and lead you nowhere in life, he should've embraced his death sentence. After all, by dying, he unwittingly demonstrated just what happens to people the do things like him. Actions speak louder than words, especially when those words weren't even yours. If he really wanted to let kids know that joining gangs is a bad idea, all he had to do was nothing, and take the fall.

Oy, this post has turned into quite the essay, no? Guess I got a bit carried away. But as a repeat victim of gang violence myself, having been both stabbed and shot at before even reaching middle school, I think I have a right to be passionately against allowing known mass murderers clemency simply because someone wrote some children's books in their name. If having tax payers pay the bills so convicted serial killers can breathe simply because others demanded clemency and release off of ignorance and disinformation isn't COMPLETELY LUDICROUS, then I don't know what is.

[Mindfields]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Stanley Tookie Williams

Sorry I left this out, dancing, but I was thinking about letting him have a life-sentence. He wouldn't be dead, instead he would keep inspiring gangsters to...retire (sounds like the right word here).

[MalReynolds]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Stanley Tookie Williams

That would be the definite good of the situation. You have the co-founder of the crips calling for them to disband while in prison. You get the message out without killing an inspirational voice.

Mal

[FoJaR]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Stanley Tookie Williams

also, you get the message out without killing period.