Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

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  • Cavernio
    sunshine and rainbows
    • Feb 2006
    • 1987

    #16
    Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

    The only time anyone does something nice for anyone else without getting something back is when their expectations of reward were way off the mark.
    We do nice things for people because we expect something in return. If it's a warm fuzzy that we get then it's a very obvious reward and is highly unlikely that one wouldn't get it because just the thought of doing the nice thing probably gives one a warm fuzzy. But there could theoretically be a total mismatch of reward vs expectation.

    Alternatively, sometimes we do nice things for people despite very little reward because we've been trained that way. Like a computer that would be programmed to say 'You look good today' when someone goes on it, the computer wouldn't feel good saying it, but it's still doing something nice. People can and are basically trained just like animals, and will automatically do so many things without actually pausing to think about them. While reward may have been necessary to develop the behaviour in the first place, reward isn't necessarily necessary once a behaviour is learned.
    Basically, if we do something nice but didn't think about it, I think we've done something nice with no reward for ourselves. I am finding it hard to give an example, but perhaps something like holding the door for someone. Sometimes we think about it, but more often than not it's simply a trained habit. I don't think these actions are particularly altruistic though.

    Back to the OP tough. Most megacorps, in my mind which is probably highly inaccurate, would be better off showing altruism through better employment, better pay, better plans, etc. Like if a company is known for creating and using sweatshops or uses tax havens or has pitiful employee benefits or won't let employees unionize, etc, then them throwing money at some cause seems pretty manipulative to me.
    Of course it depends on what the cause is as to how manipulative it feels. Donating money for cancer cures isn't ideologically against paying employees small wages, and so at least they'd be doing something good. It'd be quite different, if, say, they supported habitat for humanity or something, while not paying their own workers enough to support themselves.
    Last edited by Cavernio; 12-24-2013, 10:45 AM.

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    • SCWolf
      ༼ ͡◉ل͜ ͡◉༽ 👌
      • Jun 2006
      • 1662

      #17
      Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

      Originally posted by Mollocephalus
      When you're doing something without any apparent personal gains you're actually still satisfying an inner impulse. No matter what the return is, there has to be one, or you wouldn't do that action at all. Just a heads up.
      Exactly.

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      • Svaz
        quite clever
        • Oct 2008
        • 792

        #18
        Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

        The question posed in the OP evokes a concept of Judaism in my mind: Tzedakah. The link above details how it pertains to Judaism and whatnot, but what was brought to me particularly was the idea of a tier system when it comes to charity/kindness/giving things, etc. It argues that even being able to witness/experience/know of how it impacts the receiver isn't quite just. To truly achieve charity, you need to, well, "teach a man to fish," as the expression goes.

        Following that stream of thought is a hell of a lot of criticism (warning: this link is especially broad) that acts such as charity and benefit donations only address symptoms and not the core issue; akin to maybe giving someone a tissue for mucus they're coughing up due to a bacterial infection, I guess.

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        • stargroup100
          behanjc & me are <3'ers
          FFR Simfile Author
          FFR Music Producer
          • Jul 2006
          • 2051

          #19
          Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

          Rubix probably hit the nail on the nose. There's no such thing as true altruism.

          When people do something "selfless" or "altruistic", it's not because they are truly being nice for the sake of being nice. What it means is that they are doing something that has an overall direct benefit to society, but the direct personal gain is small, maybe even negative. (I use "direct" because these gains need to be something that can be seen/measured) Ultimately, they still make that decision because it benefits or satisfies them to some degree, which would not be true altruism.

          All humans should strive to make decisions that benefit mankind. In the end, that's what is most important. If you make a decision that does just that, but also with high direct personal gains, whether or not that person is selfish is an entirely different manner. The person in question here still made a good decision.
          Last edited by stargroup100; 01-24-2014, 08:58 AM.
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          • Vendetta21
            Sectional Moderator
            Sectional Moderator
            • Aug 2006
            • 2745

            #20
            Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

            I think this semantic argument of altruisn being self-interested often gets abused like Pascal's wager in an attempt to level out the self-interest of things like feeling good from donating to charity and feeling good from stealing an item from the store, and when you render those actions as similarly motivated you can sort of paint things with a moral nihilism.

            There is a hard to articulate but naive understanding of the word altruism where you are only getting back feelings of self-worth or esteem for your actions. If we define altruism as doing an act that helps others solely for your feeling of self-worth or adherence to your core values, then I am happy with that definition and would encourage others to be more altruistic.

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            • devonin
              Very Grave Indeed
              Event Staff
              FFR Simfile Author
              • Apr 2004
              • 10120

              #21
              Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

              Exactly. I mean...if you go around doing good things for people because you are insanely selfish and outright addicted to the feeling you get when you do a good thing, and actually don't even care at all about the person to whom you are being generous or kind or helpful, that's totally fine.

              This is also the reason why I don't get down on legitimately religious people for their religious beliefs. If the reason they are being kind, loving, forgiving and compassionate is because a book told them to and they believe it, what do I want? For them to be an asshole instead?

              If you are being a good person for bad or incomprehensible motives, you're still being a good person.

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              • Izzy
                Snek
                FFR Simfile Author
                • Jan 2003
                • 9195

                #22
                Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

                Sure it might be better than some alternatives, but I would still rank being nice because it makes you feel good higher than being nice out of fear.

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                • Ksl33zy24
                  The New York Yankees
                  • Dec 2009
                  • 1047

                  #23
                  Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

                  There has never been a single selfless act ever, so don't worry about it.
                  it was urgent because i wanted it fixed fast.

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                  • Izzy
                    Snek
                    FFR Simfile Author
                    • Jan 2003
                    • 9195

                    #24
                    Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

                    Sacrificing your life for someone you hate? Is that possible?

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                    • devonin
                      Very Grave Indeed
                      Event Staff
                      FFR Simfile Author
                      • Apr 2004
                      • 10120

                      #25
                      Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

                      Originally posted by Izzy
                      Sure it might be better than some alternatives, but I would still rank being nice because it makes you feel good higher than being nice out of fear.
                      Being nice out of fear was never the question here. The UNIVERSAL objection to "Aren't selfless acts wonderful?" is "HURF DURF EVEN IF YOU ONLY DO IT BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD ITS SELFISH NOW HURR DURR" which is just (coming from me even!) overly literal and redundant in any sort of actual thought on moral philosophy.

                      You'll notice that I said legitimately religious people. People who obey God for fear of Hell aren't really what I'd call legitimately religious, as those are the same kind of people who condemn others as -going- to hell for "breaking" the "rules" of God. The legitimately religious are people who admire Christ or the Buddha as being generous and kind, and seek to live up to their compassion and love by doing so themselves.

                      Thank goodness doing nice things for other people makes us feel good, or shit would never get done around here. If the only reason you do a nice thing is because you enjoy the feeling of doing a nice thing, that's still selfless.

                      Even if you only do a nice thing because you feel like it will gain you social capital to use later, I'd still argue that is pretty selfless, because chances are, the reason the person you were nice to got treated nicely in the first place, was cashing in a bit of social capital they had earned. Keeping the cycle going is also pretty selfless.

                      When -I- say a position is too pedantic, you know something's up.
                      Last edited by devonin; 01-24-2014, 12:49 PM.

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                      • devonin
                        Very Grave Indeed
                        Event Staff
                        FFR Simfile Author
                        • Apr 2004
                        • 10120

                        #26
                        Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

                        Originally posted by Izzy
                        Sacrificing your life for someone you hate? Is that possible?
                        Absolutely.

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                        • Vendetta21
                          Sectional Moderator
                          Sectional Moderator
                          • Aug 2006
                          • 2745

                          #27
                          Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

                          I feel like saying everything is self-interested is a purely descriptive statement which has nothing to do with morality which is perscriptive set of beliefs or values, which is what "altruism" is trying to get at.

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                          • RB_Spirit
                            D7 Elite Keymasher
                            • Jul 2009
                            • 681

                            #28
                            Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

                            It's impossible to be nice
                            Originally posted by Callipygian
                            There's always some issue you can find with the exact terminology of a game. In fact, let me here make a case that the current system has racist undertones:
                            Blackflags are worse than whiteflags and AAA's are indicated as yellow in R^3, suggesting that a perfect score is Asian.

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                            • Izzy
                              Snek
                              FFR Simfile Author
                              • Jan 2003
                              • 9195

                              #29
                              Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

                              Originally posted by devonin
                              Absolutely.
                              So then you can do something nice for someone even though it makes you feel bad.

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                              • devonin
                                Very Grave Indeed
                                Event Staff
                                FFR Simfile Author
                                • Apr 2004
                                • 10120

                                #30
                                Re: Is it ok to do something nice for someone else for your own self-interest?

                                Originally posted by Izzy
                                So then you can do something nice for someone even though it makes you feel bad.
                                Doing a thing you don't want to do because it is the good or right thing to do brings us full circle to the maturity thread.

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