Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

[Reach]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

Is this not how it should be? If you can't even pass the final, thus proving you failed to learn roughly HALF of the material in the entire class, you DESERVE TO FAIL THE CLASS. I don't care if you did all the homework, if you fail the final exam, you didn't learn ****.

I don't necessarily disagree, but you have to be careful here though. It's not like getting a 50 on an exam means you understand 50% of the material, and if you get 100% you understand everything. Getting a 50 means you managed to answer half of the questions on the test to the standard. In order to take the leap you're taking, you'd have to make several assumptions, such as the test being a 100% valid, reliable and consistent measure of knowledge in the subject.

However, that certainly isn't the case, as anyone can tell. As an example, in one of my physics classes last year, I made one mistake on the midterm which was a calculator error (accidentally put the wrong numbers into my calculator) in the middle of the question, which resulted in me getting half points for the question, even though it was the only mistake. The question was worth the most on the test, so I got a 90, even though I knew all of the material.

This problem is further exacerbated on multiple choice tests, where if constructed very poorly (which is so common), one must choose the 'best answer'. Another problem with multiple choice tests is they fail to reward you for what you do know in the case of flubbing a question. You don't get 90% of the value for a question for falling for the trick answer because you didn't analyze the question to death, even though you clearly understand and know the material.


But sure, I can agree with the fact that regardless, less than 50 is an abysmal mark in *most* classes, and reflects terrible work ethic and lack of knowledge on the subject, so you deserve to fail.

[infinity.]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

i'm a 4.0 unweighted student right now,
i know this kid in my grade, taken advanced classes all his life, but he obviously shouldnt be, he studies for math tests for 3-4 hours a night, because he just can't get it. he would do extra homework just so that he could make sure he understood it, and would still barely get that A that he desired so much.

i think he deserves it, and i think a kid that doesnt do work, no matter how capable, is an idiot.
sorry.

[IDKW2CM]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

i know this kid in my grade, taken advanced classes all his life, but he obviously shouldnt be, he studies for math tests for 3-4 hours a night, because he just can't get it. he would do extra homework just so that he could make sure he understood it, and would still barely get that A that he desired so much.

Ha he shouldn't be in advanced then, but if he really wants too... but good job for him to get that A!

and i think a kid that doesnt do work, no matter how capable, is an idiot.

Agreed!

[Afrobean]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

things

Seems like most of your dissension comes from the basic fact that it is potentially impossible to objectively test things. The leap that must be taken is to assume that a test can be an accurate measuring stick must be taken however, even in a flawed system such as this. We just have to hope that those with power do things right.

Oh of course, however if the child is a "genius", he should:
A.) Have no excuse to do poorly in grades

Artificial value in homework isn't a decent excuse? Well, that's your opinion. I'm going to go ahead and stick with my "person who understands the subject matter is a better person than the person who is more willing to do busywork on the subject matter" ideal.

B.) Go into a harder class

This is not possible in most cases. Up until high school, social reasons are a good deterrent to getting into harder classes... how would you like to be 8 years old in a class full of 12 year olds? Good luck developing any social skills, and really, the education system is as much for learning socialization as applicable knowledge.

Beyond that, at older ages, where age gaps can become less relevant, the problem becomes that advancement into higher classes requires a test-out. In other words, you can only get into an advanced class if you can already prove that you know what the class will teach you. This does not help students who do not know these things, yet learn them easily. In other words, the problem isn't that the subject matter is already known and they need a higher level class, it's that the subject matter is so easy and moves too slowly, putting undue emphasis on subtopics which are easily covered for these students.

So yeah, you can't just "go into a higher class" because your class is moving too slowly. I'd love to see you go from 9th grade math into calc without taking the classes in between. The knowledge of those classes needs to be instilled, but they don't need to be instilled in the way that they are. I guess what I'm musing to here is that rather than there simply being higher level classes available to students, there should also be classes which teach to those who easily learn.

Otherwise, it's just lack of effort. The message is basically being given, "I'm too good for everyone else because I already understand the material, so I shouldn't have to do anything". That's not how the real world works, and poor work ethic in general.

Like I said, homework doesn't have an innate value in it. It's an artificial value. I have a good work ethic where my actions have true consequences. I do not have a good work ethic where the work being done teaches me nothing. For example, pull out a piece of clean paper and a sharpie and color it solid black. That takes a lot of work, but does it get you anywhere? What if a person in an authoritative position told you that if you don't color that paper black, you won't get a good job. This is how it seems to the student who doesn't need the busywork of homework to keep up in the class. Have you ever seen the film Office Space? The scene between Peter and the Bobs is a good reference point to what I'm getting at here. Motivations are key here, if the student does not have anything to gain (i.e. knowledge/learning), then it shouldn't be a fundamental component of their schooling. Attaching an abstract and artificial value to it can only serve one purpose: to keep them down. But we shouldn't be basing the system in a way that would keep students down, we should be building them up. If a student can succeed outside the realms of what others need to succeed, they should be set aside and handled differently.

So yeah, work ethic is important, but artificially requiring work that doesn't do anyone any good is not a good method of even measuring real work ethic. You want to measure a person's work ethic, wait until they have a job, then take a look at their performance during the job. Education is not a job.

Again, lack of effort. If it's so easy for the student to comprehend, it shouldn't take him long at all. The fact that he can't sit down and focus for 5-10 minutes doing something so easily is just plain inexcusable.

I don't know about you, but a lot of teachers at my high school had some asinine idea that students NEED to have homework, whether it helped them or not. I've had so many instances where the teacher would give about an hour of busywork for no reason other than to ensure that we had homework.

The kind of homework that can be completed in 5~10 minutes? That's where Tass's method comes in handy. But when the teacher assigns you 50+ math problems that take nearly a minute each to complete? **** that. Even if I was struggling with a concept, it wouldn't take me more than a couple examples to fully grasp it.

Why can't a bright child be lazy? Their brightness is to the fact they can understand the material so easily without putting in any or little effort.

I was just flowing some logic there that if the person is THAT lazy, no one would even know that they're bright. If they're that lazy, how could their brightness be witnessed by anyone? If they're that lazy, their parents wouldn't even know that they're "bright".

This is, of course, assuming that the child truly IS intelligent and it's not just the parents being stupid, thinking their child is a genius when they're really retarded.

While I can agree with that some parents don't actually know the material, they should at least sit down, and take the time to understand it with their child, instead of just blaming the teacher. Two heads are better than one.

You wouldn't be saying this if your intelligence far surpassed your parents'. If I needed help with something (which, luckily, at the levels I got to, I never did), I'd be better off talking to my little sister who is 4 years younger than me than I would talking to my parents.

Ironically, my older sister wouldn't have been any help.

Wait. I think I get it now. My older sister had a different birth father than myself and my little sister. Must be a sign that the intelligence we have is from our father then. Hah.

But alas, my father was never around in the afternoons thanks to work. Either way, it's been a long time since he was in school, and I know he doesn't have a grasp of academia any further than around that of an elementary level (aside from knowledge he is able to apply in everyday life, of course). He probably would have been able to help me in junior high if I needed, assuming he was actually around, but beyond that, when I started getting into the higher algebra, the trig, chemistry, etc. he wouldn't have been able to help in the slightest. The only advanced areas he could actually help me in would be, GASP, the more trade-like areas I touched in during my time in highschool (i.e., CAD and IT).

Also let me add that if we are talking about legit geniuses, they should probably go to a private school where they are challenged so. If we are talking about bright, intelligent students, everything still applies.

Oh, sorry, some of us can't afford private schools.

And some of us are, despite being above average intelligence and highly receptive to learning, still below genius level.

Oh and by the way, my current mindset didn't really develop until later on. Back in elementary school and such, I never didn't complete my homework. But eventually, somewhere around 9th grade, I got to the point where I realized that I didn't need it to learn, so I stopped doing it. Actually, it's funny. The best grade I've had in any academic class throughout high school through the little bit of college I've completed was in 9th grade, when I first stopped doing homework. The grades for the class were completely determined based upon unit tests and daily quizzes.

Also, if the child doesn't understand the material, it's up to the CHILD, (not the parent, not the teacher) to come the teacher after class for help.

But if the child is as bright as we keep alluding to, such a thing would be unnecessary anyway. Isn't the central argument here about "STUDENTS NEED TO DO HOMEWORK" and "SOME STUDENTS DON'T NEED HOMEWORK TO KEEP UP". If a kid has to go after school for help, homework is absolutely a good thing for them (although, I may still question the validity of REQUIRING so much of it for them). That kid, though, is not the kid I am talking about.

and i think a kid that doesnt do work, no matter how capable, is an idiot.

Sorry, but I guess I "work" more efficiently than you. I can learn subject matter completely within the allotted class time. It's not my fault if you (read: everyone else) can't.

ps lol WALL OF TEXT ATTACCCCCCCCCCCCCCK BEAR WITNESS TO MY IMPENETRABLE DEFENSE!!!

I'll be back later to throw more words at anyone who dares oppose me.

[Redorigami]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

Oh and by the way, my current mindset didn't really develop until later on. Back in elementary school and such, I never didn't complete my homework. But eventually, somewhere around 9th grade, I got to the point where I realized that I didn't need it to learn, so I stopped doing it.

This. Exactly this.

[stretchypanda]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

>/ They moved a kid out of my class into a lower level class today. He's not low level, he just can't read. I'm saaaad.

[IDKW2CM]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

That is sad. (not sarcastically)

[sonic-fast-fingers]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

Stretchy did you not see my question?

And how in the world is someone in the 9th grade if he can't read?

[stretchypanda]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

Stretchy did you not see my question?

And how in the world is someone in the 9th grade if he can't read?

Uh, lots of adults can't read.

1) English is not his first language. His communication skills are excellent, however.

2) He has reading comprehension problems. He is probably undiagnosed dyslexic.

3) He was until recently lost in a school district that recently misappropriated 84 million dollars -- he's been at my school for six weeks and we've still not received his paperwork.

It's pretty easy to get by unable to read.

[IDKW2CM]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

2) He has reading comprehension problems. He is probably undiagnosed dyslexic.

that stinks

[Afrobean]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

I thought we were talking about high school students, not elementary students. School doesn't mean squat until high school.

If you notice, I only included this for sake of completion. I mention high school in the next paragraph. If you're going to type up a response as you're reading it, please, go back and modify previous responses to portions as your further reading becomes inaccurate.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Actually, I asked my mother once (she's a teacher) why some students were able to jump from Pre-Algebra to Geometry, instead of taking the Algebra 1 course. She stated that the math department felt which students were capable of learning at such consistent rates, and have mature comprehension to understand something which they might not have understood in the past. In other words, you might not understand something as a 12 year old, but when you're 13 it eventually clicks, because your brain is further developing.

Well, that's a different thing. Going from Algebra to Geometry, that is. My school doesn't have those classes. They had Math 1, 2, 3, Precalc, Calc, and AP Calc (as well as a smattering of remedial level classes). Kids who took the advanced math in junior high (which is the same as high school's math 1, combined with the necessary elements they would have learned in the normal 8th grade math) can take 2 in freshman year. But they can't skip 2 and go to 3. They can't skip 3 and go to precalc. They can't skip precalc and go to calc. The only thing they can do, is take AP Calc instead of Calc. Durka.

And no, it's not about age or bull**** like that. If I had gotten tailored education, I could have been doing advanced algebra and trig before I hit puberty. But instead, they focus on OMG MULTIPLICATION OF NUMBERS WITH 2 OR MORE DIGITS and WTF ADD AND SUBTRACT FRACTIONS. WOW THAT **** IS HARD WOOOOOOOOOAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHH

From developing what I said earlier, those said students would take extra time out of their normal class schedule to learn the majority of Algebra 1, so they could comprehend the basics of Geometry at the start of the class.

Yeah, well, like I said, not all schools are like that. It's easier for a school to offer a single class that covers material from both algebra and geometry than to have two classes that cover only their own material.

While I can agree with you on some points about motivation, homework is set up to make sure the students understand the material. If the assignment is that easy, it should be no problem for the student to complete it.

Again, I point to the teachers who give homework just to give homework. Teachers that assign 50+ math problems when the material has already been mastered that day in class.

And I'm not saying homework shouldn't be given or that it shouldn't be considered. All I'm saying is that factoring it as a large enough part of the grade so that an otherwise good student fails does nothing BUT HURT THEM. For the students who need help in the grade department, sure, have their homework carry undue weight, but for students who are able to succeed without it, don't force it to hurt them.

What may seem irrelevant to you now might become useful to you in the future; to say knowledge is useless is pretty preposterous.

You're not understanding me. I'm not saying "don't do homework because the knowledge gained is irrelevant." I'm saying homework simply doesn't help a person when the person already knows the material. If your teacher gave you homework that consisted of finding sums of two single digit numbers (aka kindergarten ****), it wouldn't do a thing for you, right? It's because you already know the practice of that and doing it more won't grant you additional knowledge. What if the homework was so lengthy that it took away from other things you might be doing, maybe even homework for other classes that you DID need additional work with? Would you like to sit there and do an hour's worth of addition of single digit numbers just because your teacher told you that they'd give you a bad grade if you didn't?

Also, it's not just about the material you learn, but that you learn the study habits and work ethics. The teachers won't know that for sure unless you actually do the work.

Sorry, but I thought my grade in "Chemistry" should be based upon the amount of learning I did in the class, not what the teacher thinks of my work ethic. Again, school is for learning, not for work. You want to know about my work ethic, have a talk with my supervisors or my manager at work. They can tell you a lot more about it than my high school teachers could.

Again, how can you say it's not doing anyone good? The knowledge you learn in class might become useful in the future. If they honestly felt it was useless, why would they have put it in the curriculum in the first place?

Strawman.

I'm not saying "don't do homework because you won't learn anything worthwhile".

I'm saying that some students HAVE ALREADY LEARNED IT IN CLASS AND DO NOT NEED ADDITIONAL WORK HAMMERED ON THEM WHEN THEY ALREADY KNOW IT. I'm not saying "avoid knowledge", I'm saying "avoid additional work when the knowledge is already obtained".

I'm not sure how to reply to that, I've never met your teachers, but that sounds pretty silly nonetheless.

Have you never had a teacher that would assign homework JUST so that you had homework? Not because it was necessary for study habits, not because it helped to cement a concept in your mind, but just so that there was work to be done?

If I recall, there was an official policy in my school district that every class had to issue homework at least once per week. EVERY CLASS, AT LEAST ONCE PER WEEK. Some classes didn't really adhere to it, but ugh, I don't want to tell you how many ****ing busywork pieces of **** I've had assigned over the ages.

I agree, but not doing it won't help your cause either. Just bull**** it. Also, keep in mind, the more work they give you, the more work for them. If they don't even check the actual work you do, just put some random bull**** down. Do roughly 10 or so problems legit, and then rest is garbage.

Yeah, well, what I'm arguing is for a reform of the system. I'm not saying what I'm saying so kids will sit out and eat bad grades, I'm saying what I'm saying hoping that I can convince others that I'm right, and in doing so, eventually the system may see change. For example, if Ms. Panda took my simple advice of "let their grades count more heavily on tests if they want", that would be at least one student who is able to get a good grade without having homework crammed down his throat.

I have a hard time comprehending this though, because I've never had a teacher who was so dominant towards homework. Maybe your school just sucks.

Maybe? How about "definitely". But I wouldn't say that my school is atypical either. I'd venture to say that most schools "definitely suck".

I think your parents above all would know if you were intelligent or not, regardless of how lazy you were. When you're very young, I'm sure they can realize how quickly you understand things, and how easily you can interpret them. I would imagine children wouldn't start to become lazy until their adolescence.

If this is a specific bite at me, I don't appreciate it. I assure you, I am not lazy. Have a talk with my bosses about my work ethic and they could set you straight.

If not, then I apologize for the insinuation, but I must also point out that often people may seem lazy and they're really just not properly motivated.

From Office Space:
"That's my real motivation - is not to be hassled. That and the fear of losing my job, but y'know, Bob, it will only make someone work hard enough not to get fired."

My example would only apply if the student had a hard time understanding the material. However, my point earlier was more so that parents blame the child's performance solely on the teacher, when the parents should make sure their child is keeping up with school work, keeping up good grades, etc., not just helping them with the actual material. Parents need to guide the children somehow.

"Keeping up good grades"...

That is not a solid measure of the child's understanding of the material. I've known people who didn't grasp ****, but got good grades by doing homework and extra credit to balance their poor test scores, and I've known kids who fail despite moderate to good test scores due to lack of homework.

But I see where you're going, and I agree a little. They should be "coaches". But even so, that is aside from the fact that homework doesn't help some students, and instead, only serves to hold them back. The problem in this case, in my opinion, isn't that parents are failing to coach, nor that students are failing to work, because the source of the problem is that teachers force potentially unnecessary additional work.

If you were a legit, and I mean legit genius, the schools would probably pay for you, or a at least a loan from the school. If you were that intelligent, a school would love someone of that caliber representing their educational system. however I'm not sure if that's entirely accurate.

Like I said, some of us may be below genius level (as I am sure that I actually am), yet still have a strong ability in learning and intelligence. My IQ is probably no higher than 125 or so, but in spite of this, I've been able to learn essentially anything I've ever attempted easily.

I'm not arguing for the clear geniuses, the ones who could just as easily be in MENSA. I'm arguing for the kids who aren't quite geniuses, yet are still leaps and bounds ahead of their average peer.

afrobean: ^super genius

I really don't appreciate the biting, personal attacks.

you might be more intelligent than me, however work harder than me is highly disagreeable. If I was a boss, why should I hire you if you can't prove to me that you put any effort into your job? You might say you can do the job easily, but you're only walking the walk, which is pretty useless in today's society.

I have a work history now that shows my work ethic. If I had my way in the school system, I'd also have a school transcript saying that I did well in a number of advanced classes. Who do you think would win between a person with a good established work history (i.e. WORK, as in JOB) and a good transcript or a person with a good transcript (that was potentially handed to them for their hard work rather than their proof of learned knowledge).

What I'm trying to say is that WORK ETHIC should be measured by WORK, not by EDUCATION. I go to school to learn, not to prove my work ethic.

**** that was annoying, gg you managed to make me kill a good 20 minutes reading though all of that ****. <3

here's a very nice quote I might add:

"How do you know you're a genius if you can't even show it?"

Which is the idea I was alluding to when I made the comment about lazy kids not actually being bright, because if they were that lazy, their intelligence wouldn't be apparent.

>/ They moved a kid out of my class into a lower level class today. He's not low level, he just can't read. I'm saaaad.

Why couldn't they just get him special help in the reading department?

I mean, reading is a necessary skill throughout education; he's going to struggle no matter what level he's at if he can't read.

[iceefudgesickle]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

Dun wury stretchypanda I r gud stood3nt

That's why I'm on the FFR Forums during my Computer Apps class!

Oh well screw taking Computer Apps seriously I get the work done in 5 minutes and then I sleep and mess around on the computer. Best class ever.

[IDKW2CM]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

Dude my computer classes are so easy for me.
Only the bad thing is that the school blocks like every website imaginable.

[stretchypanda]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

He's back! Yay for strategists!

[bluguerrilla]

Re: Do Ms. Panda a big favor...

No ESOL program or dual language or anything like that?

I know nothing about the Texas school system.