orlando shooting

[Reincarnate]

Re: orlando shooting

PS, to those of you who feel very strongly about banning/putting the chokehold on gun rights, but don't actually know how guns work, watch this video first:

It's 40 minutes long, but I promise it is worth your time. It is an older video obviously, but still quite relevant today.

By the time you're done, there will (hopefully) be a few very painful and obvious truths that you won't be able to shake. :P

[Rojaf]

Re: orlando shooting

yeah go to a gun show and you can pick up a fully auto gun...

for like 30k.

semi auto version of the same gun: less than a thousand.

not saying i wouldn't jump at the chance to shoot a full auto gun, but holy god they are expensive, pointless, and expensive. every time i go shooting i cant help but hear *chching* with every shot. basically $2.50 every time i reload.. i cant imagine spending like $20 in 30 seconds.

[Arch0wl]

Re: orlando shooting

as you'd imagine, the people with an actual interest in buying fully automatic guns tend to be in the upper hierarchies of organized crime, e.g. gangs/cartels/etc

not that they'd use them all the time, of course, but if you're having a firefight with another gang and you can have an M16 while they have semiauto pistols, well, you get the idea

[Arch0wl]

Re: orlando shooting

this btw has zero bearing on mass shooting since organized crime overwhelmingly does not want mass shootings to happen

(terrorist groups are another thing entirely. organized crime is motivated by money; terrorism is motivated by ideology.)

[Reincarnate]

Re: orlando shooting

as you'd imagine, the people with an actual interest in buying fully automatic guns tend to be in the upper hierarchies of organized crime, e.g. gangs/cartels/etc

not that they'd use them all the time, of course, but if you're having a firefight with another gang and you can have an M16 while they have semiauto pistols, well, you get the idea

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_submachine_gun

[Reincarnate]

Re: orlando shooting

The only time I can think of in recent US history where automatic weapons were used:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

And even here, they were illegally-modified full-autos.

Thankfully, only two casualties: Both shooters.

[Rojaf]

Re: orlando shooting

one thing i really dont understand is how republicans can get mad about democrats doing the whole gun rights thing by saying "this is really about radical islam" when they havent even tried to pass an authorization of military force against ISIS.

[Frank Munoz]

Re: orlando shooting

PS, to those of you who feel very strongly about banning/putting the chokehold on gun rights, but don't actually know how guns work, watch this video first:

It's 40 minutes long, but I promise it is worth your time. It is an older video obviously, but still quite relevant today.

By the time you're done, there will (hopefully) be a few very painful and obvious truths that you won't be able to shake. :P

the term "gun control" does not mean to banish all guns
also, no one here has really expressed the deliverance of "ban all firearms", but more of,
Omar Mateen should never have been granted the choice to purchase one.

The point of gun control is to ban those unworthy to wield a firearm,
not specifically guns themselves, within the public
though there may be some bans, their uses are usually for professional settings

kinda like having street legal vehicles

good vid though

[adlp]

Re: orlando shooting

iirc the gun vendor reported omar as suspicious to the FBI and the FBI did nothing

[Rojaf]

Re: orlando shooting

Another issue is your seemingly hyper-individualist stance to this issue, which disallows you from seeing the bigger picture. You observe that one Christian happened to murder someone, perhaps in an abortion clinic bombing, and say "aha, Christians can be just as radical as Muslims," which completely ignores all the statistical realities surrounding this issue. For the most part, Christians that murder in the name of their religion are outliers among the Christian population, which is clearly demonstrated by the terrorist stats. Islamists and Jihadists are not outliers among the Muslim population; They make up too much of a sizable portion of the Muslim population to be so.

so when the bulk of transgender murders happen in south america, you're willing to overlook the fact that south america is mainly christian because it's individual hate crimes as opposed to a single person committing a mass shooting hate crime.... sounds like you're the one hung up on individuals.

a horrific and unforgivable thing, but not a massacre.

again, apparently multiple people have to die at once for you to care.

I have several issues with this data you've provided, particularly in the context of the discussion. First, what does this have to do with religiously motivated terrorism?

it was a counter argument to this:

Simply put, the modernized version of Christian beliefs is superior to the middle-age esque Islamic beliefs and Western culture is superior to Middle-eastern culture.

which is only true when you look at first world countries. look at countries in the second or third world, or developing countries, and your statement falls apart.

Muslims in much greater frequency are killing people for religious purposes, which I demonstrated with the terrorist statistics(over 90% to be specific).

those are statistics from one month. if you use a short enough time period you can make any point you want.

Muslims in just the month of January killed over 1000 people, which is a little less than half of the LGBT murders that spanned over the last 8 years.

you're comparing deaths in the middle east, where there are wars going on, with transgender people in brazil just living their daily lives.

i'm not saying that the stuff in the middle east doesn't count, just that you're comparing apples and oranges to prove your point. which again, doesnt make sense.

lus the issue is not whether Muslims or Christians are capable of being violent, but whether the violence is religiously motivated. Pointing to violent crime stats in regions that are predominantly Christian, doesn't necessarily tell us whether it was religiously motivated or not. The terrorism stats demonstrate this, since Islamic terrorists or Christian terrorists(which are extraordinarily rare) kill almost exclusively for religious purposes.

what do you think motivates gay and transgender killings in south america?

[Frank Munoz]

Re: orlando shooting

ISIS, a group with over 100,000 members, that has massacred thousands of people in the last year or so?

while ISIS has a force of 300,000+ at most.

not doubting where you get your info but, what made this jump?

[top]

Re: orlando shooting

iirc the gun vendor reported omar as suspicious to the FBI and the FBI did nothing

This. He was on a watch list too i think for some shit he said but since there werent any legit ties to actual terrorists they kinda said fuck it.

Plus he had security jobs w/ no incidents so they prolly put him in the clear or a grey area


Idk

[choof]

Re: orlando shooting

not reading that wall of text bro0o0o0o0 but if you thought I was being serious you need to check your sarcasm meter

[Frank Munoz]

Re: orlando shooting

This. He was on a watch list too i think for some shit he said but since there werent any legit ties to actual terrorists they kinda said fuck it.

Plus he had security jobs w/ no incidents so they prolly put him in the clear or a grey area


Idk

yea, Omar was reported by a colleague of his too,
a few security officers that worked with him sent reports as well i believe,
it's kinda weird how the fbi just let so many reports slide.
even with his past events of violence, even reports of beating his ex wife before the shooting.

the fbi messed up somewhere man

[Rojaf]

Re: orlando shooting

@RojafI'm not overlooking that fact; it just doesn't clearly demonstrate what we're talking about here, which is religiously motivated violence, particularly terrorism.

except that it is religiously motivated violence, just not terrorism.

are you arguing that the contempt for homosexuality burned into people by religion doesnt count because the religion isn't blatantly telling people to go out and kill gay people?

Plus, I am not quick to jump to the conclusion that it's correlated to Christianity based on the limited data you've provided. The data doesn't delve into the demographics of murderers, which a fair percentage could even be Muslim(even if they're the extreme minority in the country)

call me cynical, but if the killers were muslim we would have heard about it.

I say this because despite making up only 1 percent of the population in the US, a Muslim has already committed enough murders to be 35% percent of the amount of murders against LGBT people in the US(141) in the last 8 years.

and ISIS is killing every gay person they can find. Islamic terror is responsible for a lot of LGBT death around the world. but so is christianity. my point is not that christians commit more terrorism, but that christianity is also deadly. that any kind of radical religious belief is deadly.

islamic terror is more openly hostile, but christianity has bred the same kind of hate for LGBT people in south america and africa with quieter, but more lethal results.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if a fair amount of those deaths in South America against LGBT people is motivated by the Christian religion, but we just can't jump to that conclusion based on this data. We need more information. What the study you provided stated is that 99% of them were motivated by homophobia, which isn't necessarily religious.

what other motivations for homophobia are there, and what proportion of homophobia do you think they account for compared to religion? i'm willing to grant that any islam in south america is also contributing to hate and hate crimes, but i am not willing to believe that it is out of proportion.

Once again, pointing to a region with a lot of violence, particularly against LGBT people, that happens to be predominantly Christian, doesn't necessarily mean that Christians are carrying out this violence in the name of their religion. The same would apply to Muslims as well. This is why I only use terrorist statistics in the discussion because it's clearly religiously motivated. I am pretty sure Muslims engage in violence that isn't necessarily related to their religiosity as well.

maybe not in name of, but because of, which is good enough for me. if you insist on drawing the line at "in name of" then christianity is definitely much, much tamer than islam. christianity just tries to restrict rights, and only tries to punish in third world and developing countries.

but that's not really important. christianity is not as openly harmful as islam, but it is just as harmful, going by numbers of LGBT deaths it is possibly more harmful.

No, the context of this discussion was Islamic terrorism and you decided to obfuscate the issue by attempting to equate "radical" Islam with "radical" Christianity.

radical relgion is not unique to islam. and i was just replying to someone else saying that radical islam is far more of a threat than anything else, and i wanted to make it clear that that statement depends heavily on who you are and where you live. because it's not true everywhere.

Once again, I must reiterate that using the term "radical" to describe a religion or religionist is fucking stupid.

nope. you're wrong.

No, the data you provided isn't necessarily related to religiously motivated violence, particularly Islam and Christianity. What you've provided is data pointing to a disproportionate amount of murders against LGBT people being in the South American region, which is predominantly Christian, but as I demonstrated, this isn't necessarily religiously motivated violence.

you're right, it could be motivated by..... i cant come up with anything else. if you can please feel free to enlighten me.

The terrorist statistics clearly point to religiously motivated violence to which Muslims are predominantly the perpetrators.

yep. when it comes to terrorism right now islamic terror and specifically isis take the cake.

I guess you didn't bother to read this:


Look at the data yourself:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...80%93June_2016
It's not that complicated. I don't know why you're denying the obvious.

actually it really is complicated. a lot of the statistics you include are in iraq, afghanistan and syria.

I was making a point about proportionality as I stated in the first sentence of that paragraph. And you're right; you really can't compare the two. One is clearly religiously motivated violence, while the other isn't.

if not religion then what? what other entities preaching that homosexuality is an abomination are there?

I wouldn't doubt that it has something to do with Christianity, but I wouldn't discount Latin American cultural elements as well, which tend to be homophobic.

where do those latin american cultural elements come from? perhaps christianity? if it's something else please tell me.

I actually have some first-hand experience with this, since part of my family is from South America. Ultimately, according to the study you posted, 99% of these murders are motivated by homophobia, which is rather unsatisfactory.

again, where does homophobia come from? perhaps people preaching that it is an abomination?