orlando shooting

[Dynam0]

Re: orlando shooting

@Frank his point is that there are many more followers of the Medina scripture than the Christian equivalent who follow the Old Testament. Moreover those Islamic scriptures of the Medina period are much more violent than Old Testament are.

The religion itself is literally founded on raiding and wars

[Frank Munoz]

Re: orlando shooting

@Frank his point is that there are many more followers of the Medina scripture than the Christian equivalent who follow the Old Testament. Moreover those Islamic scriptures of the Medina period are much more violent than Old Testament are.

The religion itself is literally founded on raiding and wars

it is when there are those who threaten their god, like the usa did.
which is why violence revolving islam is so consistent.

but this is more about mateen himself as was my original point.
his underlying motives as to what would cause him to commit the crimes he did.
as well as the history of misinterpretation on what god truly wants.
just as kaj2 interprets Islam as the leader of ISIS does.
whether kaje truly wants to understand the religions heinousness of what is Islam, which i'm not saying is all about peace, i'm more curious as to what propositions jake will propose to 'contain' the violence tendencies of those who misinterpret it.
As it stands now, those who strongly believe islam is the root of all evil want it to be bombed.
Which, in turn.. you know how that'll work out.

[adlp]

Re: orlando shooting

if christianity is the religion of christ, how come the extremists arent extremely christlike?

does that mean that christianity doesnt even believe in jesus holy crap your math works real good.

obviously it was sarcasm lool

[adlp]

Re: orlando shooting

hooly shit kaj3 with the writeup, good shit dude.

[kommisar]

Re: orlando shooting

I don't think I need a citation for christians against homosexuality lmao


but being on twitter a few days after was pretty tragic

http://thoughtcatalog.com/jacob-geers/2016/06/here-are-all-the-people-applauding-the-orlando-gay-club-shooter/

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand christian religious leaders supporting the killings. now i'm not dumb, they're a minority. but they exist:
"American voters support 53 - 40 percent allowing same-sex couples to marry and support 53 - 44 percent the U.S. Supreme Court decision legalizing same-sex marriage in all 50 states" - Quinnipiac University Poll August 3, 2015

https://www.qu.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2265

idk 40% is a lot of people. now this is simply for "marriage" but preventing them to do so on religious grounds is nothing short of discrimination.

[adlp]

Re: orlando shooting

yes you do. you claimed millions killed, that's alot of people. enough people that there would be reputable statistics to back up those claims.

also on twitter

christians arent the fucken problem because they dont mass murder people and try to destroy western society.

[Rojaf]

Re: orlando shooting

It really is fascinating to observe obscurantists in action. It is a testament of a certain level of discomfort when it comes to discussing a barbaric ideology in which the majority of its adherents happen to be brown people. I am almost certain, that even using the word "brown" to characterize other humans may trigger a few to which a similar reaction would not be received if I used the word "white" instead. We have no issue or discomfort dog piling on Christianity for the simple fact that the majority of its adherents are white. I have no issue mocking and eviscerating Christians and their retarded religion, but it really is a demonstration of hypocrisy when you have no issue with the disembowelment of Christianity and its followers, but suddenly get up in a tizzy and cry racism or "Islamophobia" when someone decides to do the same with Islam and Muslims.

i think it's a reaction to the fact that most of the people who pile on islam are christians.

i think most people feel the same way about christianity and islam: as long as your beliefs dont affect anyone else you are free to believe them. the problem, and main difference here, is that the majority of americans have no problem imposing their christian beliefs on other people while at the same time calling islamic people in other countries backwards and extremist for doing the same thing in other countries. both are wrong! both are happening! christians saying that muslims should not impose sharia law while fighting to deny equal rights in america is very, very hypocritical.

it's mostly an issue of relevance. there's not going to be sharia law in america, ever. there is however the persisting problem of christian morals trumping equality.

Another issue I see being brought up in response to this Muslim terrorist attack is gun control, which is just another form of obfuscation. Look, I agree that guns are an issue, since they facilitate mass shootings such as this, but stricter gun laws aren't going to stop Islamic terrorists from committing violent terrorism. For example, just last year in France, a country with much stricter gun laws than the United States, over 100 people were massacred by Jihadists. And honestly, when you put things in perspective, the Orlando shootings are just another episode of frequent Islamic savagery. It's not like this is anything new; it's just that we can keep our heads in the sand until it hits close to home. Jihadists are killing others almost every day, sometimes in the hundreds, or in the thousands.

yeah which is why we implement laws that prevent people suspected of terrorism from legally obtaining guns, at least make it harder for them to commit crimes like this WHILE ALSO FIGHTING RADICAL ISLAM.

they are not mutally exclusive and we should pursue all avenues. why is this even an argument??

It's hilarious that you want to jump in a time machine to falsely equate Christianity with Islam.

oh sorry i didnt realize that looking back 60 years or looking to africa right now was not allowed. how far back is okay to look? i mean september 11th was 15 years ago, does that not count anymore? and i mean yeah, lol, africa doesnt count what was i thinking..haha.

@Rojaf

The first graph you posted is heavily misleading. Islamic extremists were the perpetrators of 6% of the terrorist attacks between 1980 and 2005, but only make up 1 percent of the population. Unless the graph adjusts for population and is using measurements on a per capita basis.

a big part of that could be because a large portion of those acts of terror were perpetrated by non-citizens... making per-capita statistics absolutely meaningless.

[Rojaf]

Re: orlando shooting

Another citation needed. And do these Christians actually go out and massacre gays? Throw them off buildings and so forth? Stop trying to falsely equate Christians with Muslims. It's fucking embarrassing. It's clear that one group holds a greater degree of anti-gay sentiment compared to the other just by looking at the data.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States

like, really...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Act,_2014

The Uganda Anti-Homosexuality Act, 2014 (previously called the "Kill the Gays bill" in the western mainstream media due to death penalty clauses proposed in the original version)[1][2][3][4][5] was passed by the Parliament of Uganda on 20 December 2013 with life in prison substituted for the death penalty.

oh good just life in prison not a government death sentence for being gay, phew.

[kommisar]

Re: orlando shooting

yes you do. you claimed millions killed, that's alot of people. enough people that there would be reputable statistics to back up those claims.


christians arent the fucken problem because they dont mass murder people and try to destroy western society.

I admit millions was def. an exaggeration


but don't try to sugar coat it; christians are not fully supportive of homosexuality and republican politicians vote against legislation that defends them from discrimination.

Islamist extremists don't single out homosexuals they kill whoever isn't part of their beliefs

[korny]

Re: orlando shooting

I admit millions was def. an exaggeration

...

[Frank Munoz]

Re: orlando shooting

Here's a few iterations and more verses that complete some of what Kaj3 posted.
This is just to prove how vastly different and important who the translator is, and how texts can be interpreted differently because of it.

[I]"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the
places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage.
. . . f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers
be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful.
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion
reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil
doers"(21190-93).

other iteration
“And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.) The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of Equality (Qisas). Then whoever transgresses the prohibition against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is with Al-Muttaqun (the pious)" - (V.2:2).
190-195
"And spend in the Cause of Allah (i.e. Jihad of all kinds, etc.) and do not throw yourselves into destruction (by not spending your wealth in the Cause of Allah), and do good. Truly, Allah loves Al-Muhsinun (the good-doers).” (2:190-195)


This, to me, is to act in self defense. Only attack and slay those who attack you. But if they stop, you stop as well, as Allah is forgiving.
You must not act on transgression.

-------


"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike
it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and
love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know
not" (2:216).
"They will not cease to fight against you until they
force you to renounce your faith—if they are able. But whoever of
you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing
in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants
of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have
embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought
for the cause of God, may hope for God's mercy" (2:217-18).


other iteration
215. They ask you (O Muhammad) what they should spend. Say: Whatever you spend of good must be for parents and kindred and orphans and Al-Masakin (the poor) and the wayfarers, and whatever you do of good deeds, truly, Allah knows it well.
216. Fighting* (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.
217. They ask you concerning fighting in the Sacred Months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islamic calendar). Say, "Fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allah is to prevent mankind from following the Way of Allah, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And they will never cease fighting you until they turn you back from your religion (Islamic Monotheism) if they can. And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever."

Fighting is in the sense of a mental battle here.
fight off other religious thoughts basically.
as those who think wrongfully will do all that they can to drag you with them.
Because Al-Fitnah(basically changing faiths) is far worse than killing yourself.
which is established to be wrong according 4:29-30

29. O you who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you.
30. And whoever commits that through aggression and injustice, We shall cast him into the Fire, and that is easy for Allah.

--------------------------------


"Let the believers not make friends
with infidels in preference to the faithful—he that does this has
nothing to hope for from God—except in self-defense" (3:28).

other translation
3:28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return.

overall similar
Basically, islams version of "bros before..not bros" u know what i mean
and if you not bro before the bro then you will receive afterlife punishment from god, unless it was against your will(hostage, threatened), then god shall merely warn you of allah's own power. Kinda harsh tbh, but allahs lettin you know you gotta find a way back to islam, even if it's life threatening.

-------------------

"Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished;
God is mighty and capable of revenge" (3:5).

other iteration
3:4. Aforetime, as a guidance to mankind, And He sent down the criterion [of judgement between right and wrong (this Qur'an)]. Truly, those who disbelieve in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, for them there is a severe torment; and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Able of Retribution.

the same thing as any other religion, don't believe in this way of life, even though there is evidence before you and allah is practically showing paradise in front of your eyes??
You are damned, and shall be punished in the afterlife.
harsh again, but it's a truth all religions believe in

-------------------

"As for the unbelievers,
neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them
from God's judgment. They shall become fuel for the Fire" (3:10).

dont really need another iteration,
again punishment in the afterlife. sinners are what fuel the flames of "hell" respectively.


-------------


"Say to the unbelievers: 'You shall be overthrown and driven into
Hell—an evil resting place!'" (3:12).

other iteration
3:12. Say (O Muhammad) to those who disbelieve: "You will be defeated and gathered together to Hell, and worst indeed is that place to rest."

you gotta let them know they're going to hell, that allah will punish them after life on earth
very similar to Christianity


------------------------------

"The only true faith in God's
sight is Islam.... He that denies God's revelations should know that
swift is God's reckoning" (3:19).

Other iteration
3:19. Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.

Sayin that islam is the religion of allah,
and if you fall for other prophecies, though Ayat, proof of islam is true and in front you, but you still waver your loyalty, then allah will call you out.
kinda like
-"hey bro.. so i heard you hangin out with uh.. jessy"
"His name is jesus"
-"yeayea... he's dead now"
".."
-"don't worry he'll be back hahaha.. just don't go with him again"
---------------

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They
will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your
ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their
mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal"
(3:118).

other iteration
118. O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.

this one's a bit more specific. You can see how minimal some translations are and how inaccurate and misleading it can be.
this verse pertains to problems Islamist faced at the time.
as do most of these verses.
another "islam is the right religion, everyone else is wrong"
also lettin you know that everyone else is up to know good.

---------------

"If you have suffered a defeat, so did the enemy. We alternate
these vicissitudes among mankind so that God may know the
true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God does not
love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and annihilate
the infidels" (3:140).

other iteration
140. If a wound (and killing) has touched you, be sure a similar wound (and killing) has touched the others. And so are the days (good and not so good), We give to men by turns, that Allah may test those who believe, and that He may take martyrs from among you. And Allah likes not the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers).

other iteration
another case where being specific in translation is key,
if someone wounds/kills you, you wound/kill them.
pretty understanble.
as you have risked your life and slayn the enemy who harmed you, you will achieved true martyrdom
ranging from all those who go against allahs way.
usually criminals, theives, and all bad stuff in general.

-----------------------------

"Believers, if you yield to the infidels they
will drag you back to unbelief and you will return headlong to perdition....
We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers... The
Fire shall be their home" (3:149-51).

other iterations
149. O you who believe! If you obey those who disbelieve, they will send you back on your heels, and you will turn back (from Faith) as losers.

150. Nay, Allah is your Maula (Patron, Lord, Helper and Protector, etc.), and He is the Best of helpers.

151. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allah, for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire and how evil is the abode of the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers).

if you believe the teachings of another religion, you will eventually change faiths, or even have no faith. But allah is your lord, and he will help you not fall for it.
and those who do not believe, but changed faiths will praying to the same god, which allah did not permit himself, then they will live in fire(be sent to hell)

-----------------

"Believers, do not follow the
example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet
death abroad or in battle: 'Had they stayed with us they would not
have died, nor would they have been killed.' God will cause them to
regret their words. . . . If you should die or be slain in the cause of
God, God's forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than
all the riches they amass" (3:156).
"God will mock them and keep
them long in sin, blundering blindly along" (2:15)
A fire "whose
fuel is men and stones" awaits them (2:24)
They will be "rewarded
with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the
Day of Resurrection" (2:85)
"God's curse be upon the infidels!"
(2:89)
"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious
punishment awaits [them]" (2:90).
"God is the enemy of
the unbelievers" (2:98).
"The unbelievers among the People of the
Book [Christians and Jews], and the pagans, resent that any blessing
should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2:105).
"They
shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the
hereafter" (2:114).
"Those to whom We [God] have given the Book,
and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that
deny it shall assuredly be lost" (2:122)
"[We] shall let them live
awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall
be their fate" (2:126).

--------------


"But the infidels who die unbelievers shall
incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall
remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor
shall they be reprieved" (2:162).


other iteration
159. Verily, those who conceal the clear proofs, evidences and the guidance, which We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, they are the ones cursed by Allah and cursed by the cursers.
160. Except those who repent and do righteous deeds, and openly declare (the truth which they concealed). These, I will accept their repentance. And I am the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.
161. Verily, those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers, it is they on whom is the Curse of Allah and of the angels and of mankind, combined.
162. They will abide therein (under the curse in Hell), their punishment will neither be lightened, nor will they be reprieved.

there is a curse placed onto those who look away from the proof of allah, pretending it is not there, lying.
unless you do righteous deeds, and or repent, revealing the lies they have told, the secrets they hold. then will god, and only god accept their apology, if thine is worthy.

----------------


"They shall sigh with remorse, but
shall never come out of the Fire" (2:168).

other iteration
164. Verily! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, and the ships which sail through the sea with that which is of use to mankind, and the water (rain) which Allah sends down from the sky and makes the earth alive therewith after its death, and the moving (living) creatures of all kinds that He has scattered therein, and in the veering of winds and clouds which are held between the sky and the earth, are indeed Ayat (proofs, evidences, signs, etc.) for people of understanding.

165. And of mankind are some who take (for worship) others besides Allah as rivals (to Allah). They love them as they love Allah. But those who believe, love Allah more (than anything else). If only, those who do wrong could see, when they will see the torment, that all power belongs to Allah and that Allah is Severe in punishment.

166. When those who were followed, disown (declare themselves innocent of) those who followed (them), and they see the torment, then all their relations will be cut off from them.

167. And those who followed will say: "If only we had one more chance to return (to the worldly life), we would disown (declare ourselves as innocent from) them as they have disowned (declared themselves as innocent from) us." Thus Allah will show them their deeds as regrets for them. And they will never get out of the Fire .

allah provides the heavens, earth, nearly basis of creation
these are signs, proof for people you understand it, and worship allah.
those who decide to follow other gods, how the believers wish the nonbelievers could see, the power of allah.
when the nonbelievers see that the other faith's followers cut their ties with them,
they will wish for another chance to return to islam, thus a crime for ever leaving islam in the first place, and they will be sent to hell.




-------------------------

"The unbelievers are like
beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a
shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing"
(2:172). "Theirs shall be a woeful punishment" (2:175).

other iteration
168. O mankind! Eat of that which is lawful and good on the earth, and follow not the footsteps of Shaitan (Satan). Verily, he is to you an open enemy.

169. [Shaitan (Satan)] commands you only what is evil and Fahsha (sinful), and that you should say against Allah what you know not.

170. When it is said to them: "Follow what Allah has sent down." They say: "Nay! We shall follow what we found our fathers following." (Would they do that!) Even though their fathers did not understand anything nor were they guided?

171. And the example of those who disbelieve, is as that of him who shouts to the (flock of sheep) that hears nothing but calls and cries. (They are) deaf, dumb and blind. So they do not understand.

172. O you who believe (in the Oneness of Allah - Islamic Monotheism)! Eat of the lawful things that We have provided you with, and be grateful to Allah, if it is
indeed He Whom you worship.


Another example of outofcontext quoting.
also a pretty poor translation.
Allah provides an example of what nonbelievers are like, after they continually refuse to follow what god has sent down; thus following satan.
you can find the nonbeliever as they will yell at the flock of sheep that do not hear him. because the sheep are deaf, blind, and dumb. But the nonbeliever keeps calling anyways
or even viseversa.
the nonbeliever is the sheep, deaf, blind, and dumb, while believers are the lone man yelling at the flock of sheep, who do not listen, as they are deaf, blind, and dumb.
not really sure which i would go with, but the latter makes more sense

---------------

Though there are various understandings of what Islam truly teaches,
there's something clouding too many Muslim's perspectives.
Iraqi and Sayria laws prohibited ISIS behavior but it's not unlike a government to become corrupt.
which is currently happening

Like the dealth penalty in iran Jak3 talked about.
Homosexual sodomy carries the death penalty for the passive party under Article 224 of the Islamic Penal Code. The active party can only be punished by death if he is married and forced the sexual act. A non-Muslim active party in homosexual sodomy is also subject to the death penalty under Article 224 of the Islamic Penal Code. Lesbianism is punishable by death if the offender is sentenced and received a lashing on three previous occasions for the same crime.

[MinaciousGrace]

Re: orlando shooting

that's alot of people. enough people that there would be reputable statistics to back up those claims.

this is not a valid line of reasoning

you should be right, but you aren't

allow let me break it down

a) even if there were tens of millions of homosexual killings across the continent (there aren't) the vast majority of nations involved would be in total denial of it regardless of internal or external pressure and would avoid keeping "reputable statistics"

b) even if they were not in total denial and governments were keenly aware of the actions they were perpetrating they still wouldn't keep reputable records on the subject because it would make them totally fucking culpable

c) even if the killings were done by non-government entities and you somehow managed to garner enough internal and/or external pressures to get the governments in question to keep track of them (which you wouldn't, by the way) they would still lack the statistical infrastructure to carry out any record keeping within the same dimension as "reputable"

d) even if you could muster a literal army of aid workers and humanitarian entities to go to africa that were capable of faithfully producing reputable statistics on this subject there is not a single universe in the fucking infinite multiverse in which every single country would be amenable to housing such a force within their borders

e) even if the governments in question were ostensibly keen on, and capable of producing these statistics, they would be bought out or outright killed by the perpetrating party before they could accomplish their task

case in point the aids epidemic has killed tens of millions of people on the african continent but do you know why all we have are estimates of aids deaths?

Because that's the fucking best we can do.

all of you live in a giant first world bubble (save for a couple) and most of you have absolutely no concept of how the world operates outside of that bubble which is why this same discussion that all of you are having now has been continuing since the beginning of civilization and will continue on until the end of it

[choof]

Re: orlando shooting

okay so should we simply kill all muslims then or

[MinaciousGrace]

Re: orlando shooting

idk i havent been paying attention to anything in this thread but the invocation of stats calls to me

carry on doing w.e you guys were doing before

[Rojaf]

Re: orlando shooting

Your post implies that the imposition of Christian beliefs is equivalent to the imposition of Islamic beliefs.

the imposition of christian beliefs in america right now is less extreme, but go to uganda and it's a different story. there was a bill that sentenced anyone convicted of being gay to death. the death sentence was changed to life in prison before passage, but the bill was passed and signed into law by the president before their courts threw it out on procedural grounds. christianity can be every bit as radical as islam, just not in the first world.

Look, I am no fan of many of the Christian impositions, particularly in America, such as "in god we trust" on the dollar bill, the decades of opposition to gay marriage, opposition to stem cell research, etc. However, the imposition Islamic beliefs in the form of Sharia law results in the death or amputation of certain individuals for not following the tenets of Sharia law. Simply put, the modernized version of Christian beliefs is superior to the middle-age esque Islamic beliefs and Western culture is superior to Middle-eastern culture.

if your argument is that first world countries are less extreme i will agree. but leave the first world and the difference isnt so noticeable.

Also, Christians may be hypocrites for criticizing other groups of religious people(since they all believe in imaginary bullshit), but it doesn't necessarily invalidate their claims, particularly against Muslims and Islam.

true.

This is a very Americacentric statement. The world doesn't revolve around the United States. I understand that Sharia law may never be imposed on American citizens(although we have Islamic courts), but this avoids the fact that this is a global problem. For example, we already see Western countries such as the U.K. being overrun by Islamic authoritarians in the form of Sharia zones. Islam is a global problem, whereas Christianity is mostly limited to the United States, and the issues it presents are relatively benign compared to the ones brought by Islam in other countries.

it is an americacentric statement. i'm an american. on a day to day level, i'm more effected by christianity than i am by islam. the only time islam has a chance of affecting me is when a terrorist attack happens. christianity i deal with on a daily level. the impulse is much smaller, but the force is no less.

You're missing the point of what I stated. I am not against gun control laws, but the idea of bringing up gun control misses what's integral to the Orlando shooting.

no, it doesn't. it can be about islamic terror and easy access to guns for suspected terrorists at the same time.

Regardless, of whether we have gun control or not, we're still going to have Islamic terorrists trying to kill people, and they will manage to get their hands on guns regardless of our current policy.

maybe, maybe not. maybe it will just take more time which will give law enforcement more time to track them down before they're able to act. you are acting like you know that it will have no possible effect on the ability of terrorists to commit terrorism, but that's not something you can know. you're speculating, i'm speculating, but why not err on the side of keeping suspected terrorists from being able to buy guns legally and easily? it cant possibly make things worse.

As I stated before, Jihadists massacred over 100 people last year in a country with stricter gun control laws than the United States. So this invalidates the gun control red herring.

nice straw man argument. obviously gun control isn't going to be able to stop every terrorist attack using guns. but there is clearly a problem when suspected terrorists have easy access to guns. it's completely foolish to have a system that lets a suspected terrorist go to a gun show and walk out gun in hand without any kind of background check at all.

Yes, the further back you go in time, the more irrelevant it becomes, at least in what we're discussing. Bringing up 9/11 is different, because Muslims are still committing violent acts of terrorism. If the situation is still the same in Christian African countries as it was 60 years ago, then it may have so relevance. Otherwise, it seems like an attempt to chalk up something else to Christianity as to equalize it with Islam.

no no no, i was talking about america 60 years ago. the stuff in africa is happening right now.

Hmm.. Then wouldn't it be more reasonable to look at terrorist stats on the global basis? The problem is if we do that, we will discover that 99% terrorist deaths are caused by Muslims. Once again, you're looking at this issue with a very myopic view, by simply focusing on the US. Islam is a global issue and requires a broader view when discussing it.

i would love to see some statistics on this. please link something.

I can't paste links, but you posted two wiki links in response to my request for citations to the claim that millions of gays were being killed by Christians. The citations you provided were not satisfactory to support this claim, but I will address them anyway:

when did i say that millions of gays were killed by christians? never. there are, however, thousands of gays that have been murdered by christians. mainly in south america:

https://76crimes.com/100s-die-in-homophobic-anti-gay-attacks-statistics-updates/

The first one is a wiki to the history of LGBT violence, mostly inflicted by Christians I would presume. Once again, this is a flimsy attempt at chalking up something else to the Christian religion. I don't care too much for what happened in the past. I am more concerned with what Christians are doing now. Are Christians still bashing gays in such high numbers as they did before? Are they slaughtering gays in clubs? What level of support for death for gays is coming from the Christian world?

The next wiki link, is the link to the "Kill the gays" Uganda Bill, which is a horrific bill, but doesn't disqualify that Christian violence against gays is a drop in the bucket compared to Muslim violence against gays. Here are some interesting excerpts from the article:

"The bill was signed into law by the President of Uganda on 24 February 2014.[6][7] On 1 August 2014, however, the Constitutional Court of Uganda ruled the Act invalid on procedural grounds"

The law was deemed unconstitutional, lol. So this "kill gay bill" is not really of any relevance in this discussion.

not unconstitutional, they didnt follow proper procedures, so it was thrown out on a technicality. it was a bill that was ratified by the legislature and signed into law by the president. to imprison gay people for life because of their sexuality.

it does have relevance. a christian country basically had sharia law regarding homosexuals for a short time. the only reason they don't now is because they're concerned about how it makes them look to other countries. basically if they could get away with it they would.

Also, this is the grand impact of this bill being signed into law:

According to a report by Sexual Minorities Uganda:

"The passing of AHA has given permission to a culture of extreme and violent homophobia whereby both state and non-state actors are free to persecute Uganda's LGBTI people with impunity.

This contributed to a rise of between 750% and 1,900% in homophobic incidents compared to previous years. A large number of medical personnel from the UN and other countries have left in protest of the bill"

On top of that, this is from 2014. Please provide a citation showing that Ugandan Christians are actively murdering gays in 2016. I am curious to see this.

as you can imagine, a lot of people arent reported murdered for being homosexual in uganda. they just disappear:

https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/wp-content/uploads/Discrimination-against-LGBTI-Ugandans-FINAL.pdf

here are some recent assaults:

https://76crimes.com/2015/10/23/outbreak-of-anti-lgbti-attacks-in-uganda/

and here's a new law recently passed in uganda:

https://76crimes.com/2016/02/25/new-...ti-repression/

Also, It should be pointed out that this is not something unique to the Christian country Uganda. Most countries in the continent of Africa oppose LGBT rights in some shape or form:




In addition, there is a Washington post article(I can't post the link), which describes the 10 countries that have death penalty laws for homosexuality. The ten countries are all Muslim countries, which includes Iran, Somalia, and Nigeria.

yeah absolutely. that's my point. along with all the islamic countries that persecute gay people, there are christian countries that attempt the same thing.

also while i was out looking i found this:



aaaand this:

https://homofobiamata.files.wordpres...o-ing-2014.pdf

from the united states:

60.6 percent of the reported 1,402 hate crime offenses based on sexual orientation were classified as anti-gay (male) bias.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/201...eport-released

but that's just 2014 here's 2015:

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/201...tics-available

christians and muslims can all do terrible shit it turns out. hate doesnt belong to just one group. the idea that christians don't commit hate crimes is crazy. south america accounts for most of the transgender murders in the world, both in absolute numbers and per capita. btw south america is vast majority christian, in case you were wondering.