Internet Piracy

[adlp]

Re: Internet Piracy

it's complicated

[Ohaider]

Re: Internet Piracy

inevitable issue that if prevented would cause too much protesting to police

[Izzy]

Re: Internet Piracy

They fixed that problem on amazon awhile ago. They make it really easy to spend money with 1 click buy.

[omega_grunt666]

Re: Internet Piracy

It can't be that much of a novelty if thousands of businesses only do sales online. Its not particularly hard to arrange transactions online, if someone is smart enough to figure out how to get money in the first place they are more than qualified enough to figure out how to spend it in a different way. I don't think making it any easier is going to help "solve" piracy. And in what ways can it really be made easier? Most of the steps involved are providing billing/contact information which are necessary if you intend on purchasing physical goods or the transaction goes wrong for whatever reason. (After initial setup it is actually as easy as click and go. In fact, some people prefer a more complicated payment system because of the risk of fraud)

Generally speaking its HARDER to get the content for free because you need to know reliable sources (Or how to find/distinguish between them) or risk being infected by malware.

Ultimately the problem is there aren't any anti-piracy measures available that don't hurt the average consumer. People want content on all their various devices and locking it in any way can interfere with that. There are thousands of ways to share files and millions of files to be shared. Its just not possible to monitor all channels to keep pirated material unavailable. And even if it was easier to control, you still have thousands of people who for legitimate reasons would be looking for/finding ways around the system. It would also disrupt all the positive effects outlined in my previous post (Keeping legacy content available, trial before purchase, etc) in addition to making physical theft a more viable alternative. (ACTUALLY harmful)

We could spend millions trying to fight piracy but the means are so common there really isn't much point. Who is it really hurting? Look at Game of Thrones, the most pirated TV series of all time. HBO has straight up said that had no impact on its financial success.

You can measure the success of something by how torrented it is, but can you show me one shred of proof that pirating something has caused measurable damage to anyone? The reason the system works is content worth paying for is being bought, and if it isn't then its even less likely to be pirated. Things like humble bundle can operate because digital items cost nothing to produce more of, its 100% initial development cost. And that can easily be covered by the people paying more than $0.1. (The average even with those people is a few dollars) Besides, I don't actually think there has been a game included in a humble bundle that hasn't already made its costs back in initial sales before its inclusion. Putting things on sale is a great way to make money, something sold for less is better then something not sold at all. (it works for physical stores, why wouldn't it work 10x better when the stock is unlimited and free?) Anyways, It seems like most of the copyright cases are akin to patent trolls trying to get money where it isn't due. Of course the line is drawn when someone is attempting to make money off of someone else's work, that is legitimate copyright infringement. But as far as personal use and alike, no harm no fowl?

[devonin]

Re: Internet Piracy

HBO is a paid subscription service for virtually everybody who watches it. One show airing on HBO isn't going to be hurt by piracy because everybody who has HBO has it for more than just Game of Thrones and won't cancel it just because they can pirate GoT. And the people who don't have HBO don't have HBO so they aren't costing them any money by downloading it instead of not watching it.

[devonin]

Re: Internet Piracy

Everybody has the right to profit from their own work and effort. At MINIMUM, you should be able to recoup the costs of development and creation while having paid yourself a reasonable wage throughout.

The problem is people conflate Piracy with Theft and then say "but since it's not actual theft, it's therefore perfectly fine and harms nobody" which is entirely nonsense.

Lets equate the "Digital goods are cost-less to mass-produce therefore, piracy doesn't take anything" scenario to the real world by positing the invention of a device. This device is essentially an incredibly accurate scanning device with an incredibly high-fidelity 3-d Printer attached.

You are a master carpenter. You spent years in trade school, years as an apprentice, a journeyman and now finally a master. You spend a month hand-carving a beautiful oak table. This oak table would be for sale, in all honesty, at a fine furniture store for probably 2500 dollars. Hand-crafted work by master carpenters is absolutely worth that much if not more.

Now someone comes into your store front, scans the table, and creates what is, to pretty much every test besides destroying it, a table identical to the table you spent all that time creating, using the skill you earned from years and years of study training and practice, and says "Oh...well, you still have your original table. I wouldn't have bought your table anyway, I just want one that is exactly like it without paying for it. You can still sell that one, I didn't STEAL from you."

Do you think that makes -any- sense as a defence at all?

When a person puts something up for sale, they are creating a contract with you. That contract says "I have made this thing. I feel that X is a fair price for that thing. If you would like that thing, please pay X. If you won't pay X, I'm afraid I can't let you have the thing"

By pirating, whether you'd have bought it or not, you're breaking the implicit contract attached to a thing being for sale in the first place.

[MinaciousGrace]

Re: Internet Piracy

correct me if im wrong but you're stating that it would be a bad thing if other people could duplicate physical objects at no cost so that an infinite number of people have a chance to derive joy from your creations, and you in turn could do the reverse

[Dynam0]

Re: Internet Piracy

1) It is wrong on some level, even for personal use.
2) The vast majority of internet users do this because of how easy it is.
3) It's difficult to enforce since virtually everyone with a computer would be infringing on copyright laws of some kind.
4) How much actual harm it does is difficult to project and this is why I think piracy will continue to go largely unchecked.
5) The 3d printer/table analogy is okay...but this "table" is intended to be copied and mass-produced anyways, only instead it's by a distributor that splits the profit with the industry who oversees production of the original. The artist obviously gets some profit as well. For something to be pirated in the first place, it's almost all of the time going to be something that has already made profitable gains and is a sought after item.
6) Given that piracy is evolving too quickly to be enforced properly, people who get themselves into the media industry need to make intelligent decisions on how they release their material. Just like people have adapted ways of pirating copies, artists need to adapt to new ways of pitching their products in the smartest commercial avenue possible.

[omega_grunt666]

Re: Internet Piracy

On the analogy itself: Presumably the table is in your store, or the stores you distribute through. This copy is in some back alley, it still has your name on it. If someone likes the table and wants matching furniture they might even come find your store (which they previously had no intent on doing) and are more likely to spend money there knowing the product is something they can rely on (Aren't you more likely to buy from a brand you know then spending blindly?) or maybe they get that from the alley as well, but they really like the stuff. So one day they find your real store and decide its worth shopping at and you get business that way. Not everyone wants to do business from the alley, you still get more than enough business to keep paying for materials/rent. And if you don't get enough business, your better off improving your product/advertising because its doubtful many people are interested in getting some from the alley let alone enough to sustain off of if they had to pay. What is the downside of them having a copy of your table at no expense to you if they cannot at the moment afford it? Is that worth the possibility they might in future be more likely to purchase from you?


I won't dispute piracy at its core is negative, but when the system is such that you are literally clicks away from "illegally" distributing or sharing content sometimes inadvertently. The problem is definitely with the system. Ok, now what do you do about it? Cracking down on power users and distributors is just about the only logical solution but it doesn't stop much. DRM and content locks do more to hinder the average end-user and usually can/will be cracked/avoided by pirates anyways. And who benefits if piracy was stopped completely? People who aren't buying the stuff still aren't and less people know about your music/movie/product and are less likely to buy it unless you put more work into making it available to everyone.


I think the only way to stop digital piracy is to restructure modern digital distribution and basically redefine piracy. Society would benefit from things hitting Public Domain sooner, The exception of course being more complex media like online games and constantly updated software where the best experience is provided by continued support from the developer. Every creator should be entitled to credit and compensation for their efforts, but your average internet piracy isn't doing much to harm that.

[devonin]

Re: Internet Piracy

correct me if im wrong but you're stating that it would be a bad thing if other people could duplicate physical objects at no cost so that an infinite number of people have a chance to derive joy from your creations, and you in turn could do the reverse

Try harder next time. Piss poor trolling attempt. 2/10 at best.

[MinaciousGrace]

Re: Internet Piracy

id try harder if you had a more sensical analogy but the bottom line is that comparing physical goods to digital ones is silly and close minded

[Cavernio]

Re: Internet Piracy

Get rid of capitalism, get rid of piracy.

[devonin]

Re: Internet Piracy

What is the downside of them having a copy of your table at no expense to you if they cannot at the moment afford it? Is that worth the possibility they might in future be more likely to purchase from you?

Who said couldn't afford? I said "wouldn't have bought"

The issue here was never "I think you are charging too much" it is "I feel entitled to a thing you created for the purpose of making a living, while depriving you of the means to make that living"

To extend your analogy: Okay, maybe nothing is wrong if YOU make your copy of the table instead of buying it. It's still for sale after all. But what if -everybody- had the option to copy the table instead of buying it? If you have the choice between "Pay 2500 dollars" and "Pay nothing" almost everybody will somehow manage to morally justify choosing to pay nothing. Just because the difference is 60 bucks for a AAA title game, or 15/16 dollars for a music album or 15 bucks for a DVD or Blu-Ray doesn't change anything.

Also, it's pretty much impossible to draw a line on when something has "Made enough money that now pirating it is okay" You've got teams of dozens and in some studios hundreds of people who all got specific education, training and experience working on a game. You've got all the overhead costs of running a studio, running a distributing company, running the logistics of shipping and sales. You've got the need to compensate all of the staff enough that they continue to work for you and continue to be motivated enough to generate you new ideas that will also make you money. You have to pay for advertising, marketing, design of things as simple as logos and box art.

All of that leads to an -incredibly- nebulous "Okay, you've made enough money, now it is morally okay to use your product without paying the agreed upon price"

[devonin]

Re: Internet Piracy

id try harder if you had a more sensical analogy but the bottom line is that comparing physical goods to digital ones is silly and close minded

The defense of digital piracy is that "when I take a copy of the digital good, you still have the good, therefore, I'm not stealing, therefore, it's ok"

By creating a situation where you can look at a physical good, and go "When I take a copy of it, you still have it, therefore I'm not stealing therefore, it's ok" and then show that no, that really makes no sense, because the whole point of a purchase agreement for a good is that the person creating it is doing so with the understanding that they will get compensation for that good.

By refusing to give that compensation, even if you can claim with certainty (which you can't) that you would never ever in a million years have bought that good, you are violating the entire purpose of the creator/customer relationship.

[justin_ator]

Re: Internet Piracy

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