World of Warcraft

[Grandiagod]

Re: World of Warcraft

Every time I seem to get a high level of any class they nerf it in PvP. I've never gotten to play an OP class in Arena.

[Squeek]

Re: World of Warcraft

Yay we did Flame Leviathan.

Then people had to go after one shot on Razorscale =/

[Sir Psycho]

Re: World of Warcraft

Every time I seem to get a high level of any class they nerf it in PvP. I've never gotten to play an OP class in Arena.

Arms warrior + holy pally/resto druid = way OP in BC. My team had an 1834 rating(2v2)

Arms warrior + enhance/resto hybrid shaman + holy pally = warrior bursting so hard, healers can't keep up. 1900ish rating.

I miss BC arms

[Mr.Nothing]

Re: World of Warcraft

Arms warrior + holy pally/resto druid = way OP in BC. My team had an 1834 rating(2v2)

Arms warrior + enhance/resto hybrid shaman + holy pally = warrior bursting so hard, healers can't keep up. 1900ish rating.

I miss BC arms

I miss Pre-BC PvP.

[Solid Dreams]

Re: World of Warcraft

Holy paladins are still extremely OP in arena, especially in 2s.

"Haha, I laugh at you with my plate and shield, and my 20k crits. GG gud gam"

That being said, I still haven't quit my ret paladin.

I GUESS I'M IN THE 5% WHO HASN'T QUIT, AND SO IS EVERY OTHER PALADIN IN MY SERVER.

What irks me is that people come into the raid and they're like "I'm a ret pally, I dps hard!" wearing 25 man gear, and I'm sitting in my mostly heroics/naxx 10 gear and outdps them by a wide margin.

People with Betrayer, for god's sake, are getting stomped by my lowly titansteel destroyer. Obviously means some people aren't reading EJ.

[devonin]

Re: World of Warcraft

I'd rather get in the habit of running with people who pull down 2200 DPS having figured it out on their own than someone who pulls down 2800 DPS by doing what EJ tells them to do.

[Solid Dreams]

Re: World of Warcraft

The nice thing is that ret paladin rotation is pretty easy, so I had figured it out mostly by myself.

Problem was I was doing Divine Storm and Holy Wrath right away, when Crusader Strike etc are much more powerful.

And you can say that, but I've run with a lot of DKs in 25 man gear who pull 1400 dps. Most paladins do 1800, but I do 3000, in a 10 man quickie raid. I think a lot of it is that they expect to do a ton without effort. Some classes, unless you're just good at it or have been doing it for a long time, require external help. There's no point in saying "I figured this out" when you're holding people back because you refuse to attempt to get better.

[DrKirth]

Re: World of Warcraft

We were so close downing flame leviathan with 4 people (17%). If we can get our kiting perfected we should be able to burn him down before we die of flame vents.

[Grandiagod]

Re: World of Warcraft

I'd rather get in the habit of running with people who pull down 2200 DPS having figured it out on their own than someone who pulls down 2800 DPS by doing what EJ tells them to do.

I'd rather run with someone who pulls 4k dps but that's just me.

[Kagome]

Re: World of Warcraft

I'd rather run with someone who pulls 4k dps but that's just me.

I pull 5k sup bby ;o

[Tokzic]

Re: World of Warcraft

Did 5.5-6k yesterday on Ignis, never dropping from top spot on Recount.

And that was before upgrading my neck, belt, and boots. Can't wait to see what I'm doing tonight.

[Necamus]

Re: World of Warcraft

I dual specced my paladin to tank.. now I rarely ever DPS. Tanking's more fun, though less competitive. Also my server has a painful lack of tanks, though I'm the second tank in my guild. But the other guy is an idiot.

[fido123]

Re: World of Warcraft

I'd rather get in the habit of running with people who pull down 2200 DPS having figured it out on their own than someone who pulls down 2800 DPS by doing what EJ tells them to do.

I fail to see why you would. I go on multiple forums to see how I can maximize my DPS but I still think for myself.

Also Affo locks got nerfed worse then your pallies, IMO when people quit for reasons like this it's good...have to put up with less idiots on servers.

[devonin]

Re: World of Warcraft

Well, my overall point was more that the problem with people who just to go sites like EJ and MaxDPS which just tell you "use this gear, use this spec, use this rotation" is great in terms of getting high DPS trained monkeys.

I mean, yes, okay, most of the people who -do- take an interest in learning about the depths of their class mechanics and abilities -also- use those websites for additional information/comparison. I do, most of the people I run with do as well. My complaint is the people who are only concerned with just duplicating exactly whatever the website says is currently the best, without thinking about it, which is a surprisingly large number of players.

But as soon as any substantial change to the class goes in, these people become whiny useless QQers until EJ/MaxDPS catch up and provide the new best spec. Someone who took the time to figure out what the things actually do, and the best way for their playstyle to play the class have a much easier time adapting to the changes since they actually understand the intrinsics of what is underlying the powers.

I was probably one of the first 10 paladins on my server to realise that we simply didn't need a spellpower mace to tank anymore when echoes came out. I had adapted and switched before those websites had fully sussed out the change and gotten new builds up. In the meantime, the people who relied on those websites to tell them how to play their class didn't know what the hell was going on.

It's also the case that a lot of people I see who are clearly those cookie-cutter website builds insist on using that rotation 100% all of the time no matter what, and manage to fail to recognize cases where maybe they should switch things up circumstantially.

I've seen ret pallies grump and grouse about being told that they can't use seal of the martyr on Loatheb for god sakes. I just don't like DPS-obsessed people who won't do anything to jeopardize topping the list at the end of the fight, and it pisses me off. I've seen enhancement shamans and ret pallies on Kel'Thuzad who refuse the idea of taking a second to toss a heal onto someone frost tombed just to make sure they don't drop, and I've seen overtaxed or laggy healers fail to get to someone who dies, when someone else might have kept them up etc.




tl;dr: I'd rather have someone who understands the class and has made a personal choice that suits their style running with me, even if they are outperformed by someone has a cookie-cutter build that they learned from a website.

[Relambrien]

Re: World of Warcraft

Well, my overall point was more that the problem with people who just to go sites like EJ and MaxDPS which just tell you "use this gear, use this spec, use this rotation" is great in terms of getting high DPS trained monkeys.

I mean, yes, okay, most of the people who -do- take an interest in learning about the depths of their class mechanics and abilities -also- use those websites for additional information/comparison. I do, most of the people I run with do as well. My complaint is the people who are only concerned with just duplicating exactly whatever the website says is currently the best, without thinking about it, which is a surprisingly large number of players.

I think it's important to make the distinction here between people who want to see high numbers without thinking, and those who recognize that they don't have the time nor the expertise to determine the most optimal way to play their class, but still want to be as useful as possible to a group or raid. Take a look at the EJ Mage information thread, for example. The math involved in those calculations is ridiculous; I know I couldn't possibly come up with anything like that. I don't know enough about being a Mage to do so, and while I most certainly have the math skill to understand it, I most likely couldn't replicate it. I follow what EJ says because I trust that anyone with enough passion to bother doing all that math and checking it and updating is probably going to be right about how best to play the class, and thus how best to help out a raid.

But as soon as any substantial change to the class goes in, these people become whiny useless QQers until EJ/MaxDPS catch up and provide the new best spec. Someone who took the time to figure out what the things actually do, and the best way for their playstyle to play the class have a much easier time adapting to the changes since they actually understand the intrinsics of what is underlying the powers.

I agree that it's best if a person understands the reasoning behind why a certain spec or rotation is superior, but I disagree that people become "whiny, useless QQers" until EJ catches up. Going back to the Mage section, EJ had already figured out what the new best spec would be long before 3.1 actually came out, just from PTR assessments. Even when there was an unexpected bug with dual-speccing that shook up optimization, EJ had it figured out within the day. (For reference, the "actual" best spec for Mages now is a certain Fireball spec, and before a certain hotfix, Frostfire Bolt with some dual-speccing trickery was best).

I was probably one of the first 10 paladins on my server to realise that we simply didn't need a spellpower mace to tank anymore when echoes came out. I had adapted and switched before those websites had fully sussed out the change and gotten new builds up. In the meantime, the people who relied on those websites to tell them how to play their class didn't know what the hell was going on.

In this case, those websites probably dropped the ball on their end. See above about how EJ figured out the ideal 3.1 Mage before 3.1 even came out.

It's also the case that a lot of people I see who are clearly those cookie-cutter website builds insist on using that rotation 100% all of the time no matter what, and manage to fail to recognize cases where maybe they should switch things up circumstantially.

I've seen ret pallies grump and grouse about being told that they can't use seal of the martyr on Loatheb for god sakes. I just don't like DPS-obsessed people who won't do anything to jeopardize topping the list at the end of the fight, and it pisses me off. I've seen enhancement shamans and ret pallies on Kel'Thuzad who refuse the idea of taking a second to toss a heal onto someone frost tombed just to make sure they don't drop, and I've seen overtaxed or laggy healers fail to get to someone who dies, when someone else might have kept them up etc.

These people are probably expecting everyone else in the raid to be set up "optimally," as well. In this case, provided everyone has the necessary personal skill to run their spec correctly, they shouldn't -need- to vary from their primary job. I agree, however, that it's stupid for these people to think that way unless you're in a raiding guild in which you know everyone is specced optimally, with enough personal skill to play correctly.

Another Mage example: Noth. From what I understand, it -shouldn't- be necessary for Mages to decurse people, because healers have it within the limits of their class to handle it by themselves. But I know that that's not going to work in the vast majority of groups, so I'll sacrifice DPS and take care of the curses. I actually have my decurse bound to an easy key combination (alt+q, since I'm already using WASD to move it's an easy reach) specifically for this purpose.

But yeah, overall I don't like treating WoW as a casual game. I understand that it -can- be a casual game and excels at doing so, but I just can't have fun if I know I'm not doing everything I can to improve. This is why I read so many strategy guides, visit a significant number of websites, and try to learn everything I can. It's also why I use these cookie-cutter builds. I recognize that people much more passionate and much more intelligent than me have worked out the math and shown that these builds are the best. And since my focus is on constantly striving toward perfection, whatever the current perception of "perfection" is, those are the builds I need to use.

As for the people who just want the best build without having to think about anything...well they probably aren't going to play correctly anyway, and it'll show. These are the people who die to Heigan as ranged dps because they don't pay attention, or who drop Grobbulus's cloud in the middle of the raid.