For a long time, I have felt like C9++ is pretty horribly balanced. My main complaints are:
1) Wolves don't have wolfchat during the day (neither do masons, but idc about that as much). Wolves absolutely need to be able to coordinate in reaction to town claiming roles, and its far too heavy of a burden for them to have to lay out EVERYTHING in nightchat in preparation.
2) Some of the role distributions kind of suck. It should roll for a 1-shot Doctor before it rolls for a Doctor, as Doctors are really strong. I would be totally fine with replacing a Doctor with an Angel, as Angel is a saving role that is functionally similar, obviously weaker (in c9++, at least, as day kills do not exist) and punishes, instead of rewards, roleclaiming prematurely. If you do not know what an Angel is or does, look further beneath.
3) The possible wolf roles do not scale very well into the higher side of the role rands, meaning that the wolves tend to be underpowered when there are a lot of town roles. I suggest that the role distribution for mafia be changed entirely in order to better allow mafia to have better counterplay, which will be outlined further beneath.
4) The pregame confirmation phase rests entirely on the Serial Killer choosing between two rather unimportant abilities, and there might not even be a Serial Killer at all. People really don't like pregame confirmation phases, and I can see why. In order to avoid this, I propose that the Serial Killer be given Investigation Immune if there is, at least, one full Cop in the setup. Otherwise, the Serial Killer be given the 1-shot Bulletproof Vest. Role confirmation can take place before the end of d0, with a gentleman's honor on reading your role and confirming it before the end of d0.
5) The Role rands are not even, and they really should be imo.
6) This isn't as much of a balance thing as it is an idea, but I think changing the Innocent Child to reveal when they want to is a neat idea. It might place too high of a moderator burden, so I have a workaround.
As such, I propose to entirely re-balance this game mode from the ground up, keeping what I feel like works well.
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So, what does an Angel do? Essentially, it is the same as a Doctor, but instead of saving a player on the same night, the save is performed 1 night later, such that:
Sunfan is an Angel. He targets star-crossed on Night One. star-crossed is targeted by a kill on Night One, and because Sunfan's Angel save is not yet in effect, star-crossed dies.
Sunfan is an Angel. He targets star-crossed on Night One. star-crossed is targeted by a kill on Night Two, and because Sunfan's Angel save is in effect, star-crossed does not die.
A really big problem in C9++ stems from someone being forced into claiming a role, like a full cop, and then, instead of Mafia or the Serial Killer being able to kill that role, a Doctor saves them. Potentially, two or more Doctors can keep someone alive forever, which is really gross and its not even TWG anymore at that point.
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I would suggest that the randomization be changed from:
1-50 = T (Townie)
51-65 = C (Cop)
66-75 = D (Doctor)
76-85 = V (Vigilante)
86-95 = M (Mason)
96-100 = B (Blocker)
to:
1-50 = T (Townie)
51-60 = C (Cop)
61-70 = A (Angel)
71-80 = V (Vigilante)
81-90 = M (Mason)
91-100 = B (Blocker)
This decreases the chance of rolling a Town Cop, while increasing the chance of a Town Roleblocker, evening out the roles. This also replaces Doctor with Angel.
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Wolves really, really need to be able to talk to one another as much as possible. Currently, they cannot, and the only reason is because of the culture of MafiaScum, rather than any balance reason. We know from countless games the power of wolfchat; but what I think we don't know, or maybe have forgotten, is how disorienting it is to be a wolf without Daychat. Lack of coordination for a massclaim can be devastating, and its not fun to lose that way as a wolf.
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The Serial Killer thing is, I think, self-explanatory. It would speed up games, and eliminates a silly choice, while giving the alignment with the lowest win percentage a slight buff. I see no potential negatives here.
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Perhaps the biggest change I would make to the game is that of equivalent Mafia Roles. I think a Role Cop instead of a Goon would help Mafia out tremendously. For the lower non-T rands, a 1-shot Role Cop seems to fit nicely.
I would change the distribution from:
TTTTTTT = Goon + Godfather, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)
TTTTTT = Goon + Godfather
TTTTT = Goon + Godfather, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)
TTTT = 2 Goons + Roleblocker
TTT = 2 Goons + Roleblocker, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)
TT = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather
T = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)
0 Ts = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather
to a more balanced:
TTTTTTT = 1-Shot Roleblocker + Godfather, Serial Killer (Conditional Extra Ability)
TTTTTT = 1-Shot Role Cop + Godfather
TTTTT = 1-Shot Role Cop + Godfather, Serial Killer (Conditional Extra Ability)
TTTT = 1-Shot Role Cop + Roleblocker + Godfather
TTT = 1-Shot Role Cop + Roleblocker + Godfather, Serial Killer (Conditional Extra Ability)
TT = Role Cop + Roleblocker + Godfather
T = Role Cop + Roleblocker + Godfather Serial Killer (Conditional Extra Ability)
0 Ts = 2 Role Cops + Roleblocker
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My proposed Innocent Child change is that, in the OP, or perhaps beneath is, the moderator of each game posts an image, and posting that image means that you are revealed as the Innocent Child. If a player who is not the Innocent Child posts the image, then that player is modkilled. It makes the most boring role in TWG a little bit more interesting, in my opinion.
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I would rather like to see how a game plays out with these proposed changes. I think I have improved the setup significantly, and I know people look to C9++ for a nice, relaxing game with a balance between known and unknown information. This, I believe, will create better games for a setup that players on FFR already rather liked.
1) Wolves don't have wolfchat during the day (neither do masons, but idc about that as much). Wolves absolutely need to be able to coordinate in reaction to town claiming roles, and its far too heavy of a burden for them to have to lay out EVERYTHING in nightchat in preparation.
2) Some of the role distributions kind of suck. It should roll for a 1-shot Doctor before it rolls for a Doctor, as Doctors are really strong. I would be totally fine with replacing a Doctor with an Angel, as Angel is a saving role that is functionally similar, obviously weaker (in c9++, at least, as day kills do not exist) and punishes, instead of rewards, roleclaiming prematurely. If you do not know what an Angel is or does, look further beneath.
3) The possible wolf roles do not scale very well into the higher side of the role rands, meaning that the wolves tend to be underpowered when there are a lot of town roles. I suggest that the role distribution for mafia be changed entirely in order to better allow mafia to have better counterplay, which will be outlined further beneath.
4) The pregame confirmation phase rests entirely on the Serial Killer choosing between two rather unimportant abilities, and there might not even be a Serial Killer at all. People really don't like pregame confirmation phases, and I can see why. In order to avoid this, I propose that the Serial Killer be given Investigation Immune if there is, at least, one full Cop in the setup. Otherwise, the Serial Killer be given the 1-shot Bulletproof Vest. Role confirmation can take place before the end of d0, with a gentleman's honor on reading your role and confirming it before the end of d0.
5) The Role rands are not even, and they really should be imo.
6) This isn't as much of a balance thing as it is an idea, but I think changing the Innocent Child to reveal when they want to is a neat idea. It might place too high of a moderator burden, so I have a workaround.
As such, I propose to entirely re-balance this game mode from the ground up, keeping what I feel like works well.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, what does an Angel do? Essentially, it is the same as a Doctor, but instead of saving a player on the same night, the save is performed 1 night later, such that:
Sunfan is an Angel. He targets star-crossed on Night One. star-crossed is targeted by a kill on Night One, and because Sunfan's Angel save is not yet in effect, star-crossed dies.
Sunfan is an Angel. He targets star-crossed on Night One. star-crossed is targeted by a kill on Night Two, and because Sunfan's Angel save is in effect, star-crossed does not die.
A really big problem in C9++ stems from someone being forced into claiming a role, like a full cop, and then, instead of Mafia or the Serial Killer being able to kill that role, a Doctor saves them. Potentially, two or more Doctors can keep someone alive forever, which is really gross and its not even TWG anymore at that point.
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I would suggest that the randomization be changed from:
1-50 = T (Townie)
51-65 = C (Cop)
66-75 = D (Doctor)
76-85 = V (Vigilante)
86-95 = M (Mason)
96-100 = B (Blocker)
to:
1-50 = T (Townie)
51-60 = C (Cop)
61-70 = A (Angel)
71-80 = V (Vigilante)
81-90 = M (Mason)
91-100 = B (Blocker)
This decreases the chance of rolling a Town Cop, while increasing the chance of a Town Roleblocker, evening out the roles. This also replaces Doctor with Angel.
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Wolves really, really need to be able to talk to one another as much as possible. Currently, they cannot, and the only reason is because of the culture of MafiaScum, rather than any balance reason. We know from countless games the power of wolfchat; but what I think we don't know, or maybe have forgotten, is how disorienting it is to be a wolf without Daychat. Lack of coordination for a massclaim can be devastating, and its not fun to lose that way as a wolf.
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The Serial Killer thing is, I think, self-explanatory. It would speed up games, and eliminates a silly choice, while giving the alignment with the lowest win percentage a slight buff. I see no potential negatives here.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps the biggest change I would make to the game is that of equivalent Mafia Roles. I think a Role Cop instead of a Goon would help Mafia out tremendously. For the lower non-T rands, a 1-shot Role Cop seems to fit nicely.
I would change the distribution from:
TTTTTTT = Goon + Godfather, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)
TTTTTT = Goon + Godfather
TTTTT = Goon + Godfather, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)
TTTT = 2 Goons + Roleblocker
TTT = 2 Goons + Roleblocker, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)
TT = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather
T = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)
0 Ts = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather
to a more balanced:
TTTTTTT = 1-Shot Roleblocker + Godfather, Serial Killer (Conditional Extra Ability)
TTTTTT = 1-Shot Role Cop + Godfather
TTTTT = 1-Shot Role Cop + Godfather, Serial Killer (Conditional Extra Ability)
TTTT = 1-Shot Role Cop + Roleblocker + Godfather
TTT = 1-Shot Role Cop + Roleblocker + Godfather, Serial Killer (Conditional Extra Ability)
TT = Role Cop + Roleblocker + Godfather
T = Role Cop + Roleblocker + Godfather Serial Killer (Conditional Extra Ability)
0 Ts = 2 Role Cops + Roleblocker
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My proposed Innocent Child change is that, in the OP, or perhaps beneath is, the moderator of each game posts an image, and posting that image means that you are revealed as the Innocent Child. If a player who is not the Innocent Child posts the image, then that player is modkilled. It makes the most boring role in TWG a little bit more interesting, in my opinion.
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I would rather like to see how a game plays out with these proposed changes. I think I have improved the setup significantly, and I know people look to C9++ for a nice, relaxing game with a balance between known and unknown information. This, I believe, will create better games for a setup that players on FFR already rather liked.
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