Song Difficulty Changelog

[Mourningfall]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

I've compared it to every other 87-90. After some deliberation I feel 89 is the most suitable difficulty. (only barely)

For 88:
Considering the current AAA count in respect to how long the file has been released relative to every other file in it's difficulty range, the peak nps and the more subjective reasons such as jumpstream/jumptrill patterns generally being much less difficult than literally every other pattern regarded to be of the same approximate difficulty (yes it sounds biased as fuck but thanks to Stepmania; jumpstream is probably one of the most common strengths among players in the Master-Legendary range) it's hardly an unsubstantiated decision to drop it's difficulty below 89.
For 89:
Taking the aforementioned into consideration it's still quite possibly the most dense and most enduring file below 90.
Stamina is a big hurdle to overcome for most players and I think that this should be recognized.

The most important question is: is it miku Home Run Derby worthy? I feel as though that answer should be yes.
The stamina and consistency needed to master this file is the perfect delineation of what it means to be D7.

Then again I'm no difficulty consultant so my opinions should be taken lightly at best.

[/my2cents]

I'm curious to hear from the actual D7s about their thoughts on the matter; OWA in particular.
What was the reason behind the initial decision to lower the difficulty?

If the verdict to keep ToY below 89 stays, I suggest knocking stinger down another peg also.

Goblin 84 to 83

^Also this.

[rayword45]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

ToY requires far more stamina than any other file in the 88 to 89 range and has some absolutely atrocious anchors. Even considering the higher AAA count with date consideration, the sheer stamina and consistency you need to even non-mash FC this makes it a solid 89.

For comparison, it's not as dense as FREEDOM DiVE but it's much more draining and contains more ass anchors whereas FREEDOM DiVE contains several long breaks and is pretty smooth.

EDIT why the fuck is beer still 78 you dickholes

[EzExZeRo7497]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

Thinking of You to me has been the easiest 89 for the longest time, and the difference between ToY and the other speed-oriented (stamina-oriented 89s+ don't exist aside from Serious Shit and they're uncomparable) is very noticeable to me. It's insanely straight forward and also not very demanding for most people who COULD get Gekijouban.

ToY is a speed/stamina-oriented file, so you can either do it or you don't. The question is at which skill level would it be very doable for the player. I consider "very doable" high SDG/low teens at least. Compared to other 89s (aside from Japan Style Breakcore, which I personally think isn't an 89 but onions), there are a relatively good number of players at high D6 level who are able to do (and have the potential to do) the file pretty easily. There's also the fact that most players are good at jumpstream - which would justifiably underrate files like ToY, because difficulties to me are supposed to tell you how hard would a file be based on an average person's skillset. The average FFR player is better at jumpstream/speed, rather than say jacks or stupid bursts a la Integraation; which is why files like Club, Almost There and Revolutionary Etude are rated as high as they are at the moment. If this was a community where jacks are usually more common, you would see files like Club being far lower than it is on FFR, but files like EHHS far higher than its assigned rating here.

Gekijouban is only given to D7 players, if you get Gekijouban you essentially become D7. 227 BPM jumpstream isn't very fast for an 89, while it could be compensated for its length and semi-difficult patterning, I just don't think it really warrants such a high difficulty because I feel that most (there are exceptions, but those players could usually get something like Schmollbluk/CCCP AAA'd) low D7 players should be able to do 230 BPM jumpstream for ages. ToY's streams are long but I don't think they're fast enough (or hell, even long enough) to give Gekijouban. Consistency definitely matters, but this isn't too hard of a file to be inconsistent on.

tl;dr ToY is definitely hard and stamina-draining, but I just don't think it's stamina draining enough to give out Gekijouban

EDIT: I personally think FREEDOM DiVE is overrated as well, I don't think it's really hard enough to warrant 88 - it's definitely the lowest 88 atm but its extremely lenient patterning makes it feel far easier than most jumpstreams at its density and speed.

[rayword45]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

Not exactly pertaining to any possible changes and also ridiculously subjective since my JS skills are ass but I don't see FREEDOM DiVE as any easier than Extratone Pirates, Here We Go, Nanairopanda or Xanthy (stupidly luck based).

I mean, personally it makes no difference to me since ToY is the LAST song I'll be choosing for a Home Run Derby unlock, but I really think it's awkward and draining to be harder than any other 88.

[Rapta]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

My argument for ToY is that the second half requires too much stamina and is too complicated to be rated lower than 89.

[TheSaxRunner05]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

itt thread we discuss how noone cares about any difficulty below 80 :p

[rayword45]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

itt thread we discuss how noone cares about any difficulty below 79 :p

fixed

[tosh]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

I'm fine with ToY being an 88, but Freedom Dive needs to be bumped down if that's the case. The two files are on completely different levels. ToY is 5 bpm faster, much more draining, and has awkward jumptrill transitions embedded into the js.

[One Winged Angel]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

Changed a bunch of stuff right now, will update OP with what in a moment.

Still undecided about what to do with ToY; I don't think it's deserving of 89+ token unlock but I can understand arguments as to why it might be. Plus I don't know if I like FD as 87 (I realize both FD and ToY can't remain at the same difficulty level). ToY just really feels like a 'gimme' compared to everything else that's 89+ atm for anyone who can PA these levels of files. More opinions appreciated.

@TSR I have down to ~70 mapped in what needs to be changed, it's just annoying to input everything at once because I need to make sure the engine remains ordered by difficulty in each genre when moving stuff around.

edit: OP updated.

[Gradiant]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

for anyone who can PA these levels of files.

That's the thing though. Just because some people are really good at files like this doesnt mean the difficulty should be bumped down as a whole. Every skillset has some people that are better at it than others. If ToY is getting bumped down, you'd also have to bump down other skillset-specific files like jacks or trills because certain people are better at those sorts of things.

Its kind of aggravating to see a file i can rarely sub-400 bumped down because some super high d6 players and d7 (why do players in this skill range effect difficulties of songs in that range anyway? Players of that caliber being able to play files that hard does not make the file easier by any means) are good at a specific skillset like jumpstream.

[One Winged Angel]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

A specific sub-tier of difficulties should group files together that are equally as difficult to score on. With FFR's end goal for all files being a AAA, it makes sense that files remain equally as difficult (or very close) to AAA as the other files in the sub-tier.

I don't expect the difficulty tiers for all higher level songs to make much sense to players that aren't close to AAAs on these files. Lets define close as 3g or better. It makes sense that high D6 and D7+ largely dictate where files in the upper echelon end up, because these are the players that are getting close to AAAs, and file ratings are, again, largely based on difficulty to AAA. It wouldn't make sense to rate ToY as high as 93 or 94 because some D6 players can score teens on Husigi but comparatively much worse on ToY, because once they cross a certain threshold in skill and are able to get 'close' to AAAs on 89+ files instead of teens, ToY will play nowhere near the difficulty level it once was to them.

This is why feedback from players who are close to AAAs for certain sub-tiers is more valuable. When I get to the mid and lower FMOs, I hope D5 players become very vocal in this thread, and I hope D6 players can post and shred anything blatantly wrong that I moved today in 79 - 84. Feedback from D7 players is (usually) far less valuable in these ranges compared to these guys, because they can blaze past everything at this level and, uh, usually don't offer objective feedback because of that lol. But the players that need to work a bit more for AAAs at these ranges (and are capable of doing so), I want to hear from them.

[rayword45]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

Well I really don't know if I'm D6 or D7 so here's an attempting at shredding the wrong

Firstaidvision, Diff: (88 => 87)
Fanteucpx[zv, Diff: (87 => 86)
Our Journey and Epilogue., Diff: (87 => 86)
Go Beyond!! -Jazzy mix-, Diff: (86 => 85)

All 4 of these are wrong, Firstaidvision requiring way too much awkward speed, Fantasy being mindblock city, Our Journey having an ass ending and Go Beyond being generally unrelenting

Hero Reconsidering, Diff: (85 => 84) Wrong, harder than Breakbeat and the ending is ass
Casino fire Kotomi-chan, Diff: (83 => 82) Wrong, ass patterns
My Fxxkin Desire For You, Diff: (83 => 82) Possibly wrong, the ending requires more JS speed than all other 82s but it's short
Ehhen Doyadosu? Tengujiman, Diff: (82 => 81) Wrong, awkward patterns
Einstein-Rosen Bridge, Diff: (81 => 80)Very fucking wrong, those Jacks are horrible and often horrible to transition too
Return to Fire, Diff: (80 => 79) Wrong if Mourning The Lost is 84
The First Epidemic, Diff: (80 => 79) Maybe wrong.

[TheSaxRunner05]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

It's ok I know there's a ton of diffculties to review and it makes sense to start from the top, I just hope we get discussion about the lower tier songs as well. I'll give some input when we get there.

[One Winged Angel]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

I'm fine with Hero Reconsidering going back up to 85 and was toying with this because I know it's worse than Breakbeat, but something from 83 or 85 needs to go into 84 then. 83 and 85 would both have 14 files each and 84 only 10. MtL could go down too but that just makes the file disparity worse. Ideally if we could get two more 84s to make it 12 files (11 if MtL moves, which it probably will), that'd be nice (either moving highest 83s or lowest 85s).

Nominees?

edit: saying a difficulty change is wrong because you have mindblocks on it usually isn't a very strong argument

[Gradiant]

Re: Song Difficulty Changelog

Difficulties dont need to have close to the same number of files for each, that defeats the purpose of organizing them by their actual difficulty.