Expanding the difficulty spectrum

[bballa48]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

Gonna switch Jamais/Husigi in the OP (Jamais fits in well with EP), as well as bump up Shotgun and 11Eleven (and maybe a few other longer songs). If bballa doesn't mind this thread serving two purposes now, might as well bring up any other songs you guys see fit to be tweaked in this thread instead of potentially having a bunch of threads once these changes are live.

Let's do it!

Also, those changes look good.


Thoughts on Storm Raid Battle going down to 84?

It seems quite a bit easier than the other 85s, although I may be biased since the file plays to my strengths.

[Poison-]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

I agree Storm Raid should be at 84. 83 seems too low, and 85 seems too high, so 84 is perfect :)

[DossarLX ODI]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

While Death Piano is more doable than RATO the scoreboards show that they're basically no better than each other, both could be at 99 statistically. Death Piano IS actually harder to FC, RATO you can mash more lazily but DP you actually have to jack fast to FC in the first place.

I can also see Husigi being above Jamais Vu. Jamais Vu doesn't go any faster than 230 bpm 8th jacks, it has difficult transitions to get out of but Husigi is harder to FC and manage one handed transitions out of longer jacks and weird dense bursts.

If 92 is supposed to be the border for old scale 13, I can agree with them except for White Walls Part 2. White Walls Part 2 doesn't have that many plays but putting it that low when the scoreboard is that messy is just silly, and 4 levels under Revo is even more silly.

Vortex in its current frame state is ridiculous to even HIT and is definitely way above 92 but with treatment it could be on the border. The file itself is hard to hit without screwing up transitions, especially getting out of those 64th walls.

It's nice that Winter Wind Etude got moved up. More statistics are being considered here now.

CCCP is placed a bit high... the file is difficult to AAA, but so are files like DeVouR etc. someone who can't FC long jacks like in slashmaid or J'ai would have a much easier time playing through CCCP.

I wish Crowdpleaser would be taken off this list because it's one of those files that have ridiculous spikes. Crowdpleaser is one of the only files in this game that has 1 framers and a trill almost 50% faster than Death Piano's trill (240 vs. 170), with terrible patterns to hit where it has 64ths.

[One Winged Angel]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

SRB should've been moved down, I forgot that it received frame treatment to remove all the two frame jumpjacks shortly after being released. Fine with 84.

More thoughts on DP and RATO sharing 99? Eze actually mentioned to me that he finds DP to be the more difficult file, but I pushed him to have RATO rated one point higher as I believe that's the general consensus. If ability to just FC is weighted more heavily here, they could share the same rating. But I think most top tier D6 players can PA DP better than they can RATO.

I honestly think the spikes in WW pt. 2 aren't any more difficult than the spikes at the end of System Doctor. The anchor jumpjack section in WW pt. 2 is much more manageable to hit than the jumpjacking section in Revo. It's just like hitting a faster Bloodmeat trill, whereas Revo is nonstop awkward anchor jumpjacking after a certain point. At the risk of sounding biased, I've AAA'd WW pt. 2 all the way to the quarter note jumptrill (at which point I choked like a bitch lol), but from that point onwards, the one handed 12th jack section and 24th trill stream is really just upper-mid FGO material imo. I'm positive I can AAA WW pt. 2 if I put the time in, and I think a lot of D6 players can PA the file much better than other 93+s (but rarely anyone's gonna play it because ffr token files never get played lol). I don't think it needs to be pushed up from where it sits atm, but hey, if you all think otherwise...

CCCP is rated higher because of hilarious difficulty to AAA, but the scoreboard looks like it could be pushed down, so I'm fine with that.

Vortex I'm gonna keep where it is for now because as soon as it gets frame treatment, it's going to play like a 90 or possibly even an 89.

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

White Walls Part 2 is definitely FSO, but I agree with it being at 92 and no higher. It doesn't need to go anywhere. It's my worst > 95 FSO, but replay analysis shows for me that if I stop being lazy and speed up on the first anchored trill, I'd AAA the song (lol).

Vortex is fine as well; the hardest sections of the file are no less common than the hardest sections of some higher FGOs (64ths? not too hard - ending patterns? not worse than Schmollbluk, me thinks).

The whole AT/M8BT argument doesn't make sense to me though, the problem with AT vs. M8BT is that you're doing a constant 150 BPM 32nd stream that forces you to transition into and out of mini-trills in AT, but you get interrupted with a lot of easier patterns in M8BT that allow you to regain your bearings, in addition to the song being 10 BPM slower without a constant point. How are these at all comparable?

[bmah]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

I agree and disagree with you. Yes there is a massive gap, I get that. However **IF** we keep the 1-99 scale:

1)VROFL is a 99.....no arguement (unless of course you expand the system)
2) RATO I think should be a 98 because despite a huge gap, RATO is the second hardest song in the game and, IMO, in its own category, thus being fitting of a 98.

Also a couple other things...If you wanna get technical about the massive difficulty gap with VROFL and keep it proportionate then RATO and DP should be the ONLY songs to reach the 90 mark (RATO 92, DP 90) and all these other songs people have in the 90's would then have to go into the 80's. This is why in my other post I suggested expanding the scale to 1-105 or even possibly higher to more accurately place songs. And to whoever even thought about the idea of making VROFL a difficulty of "??"....no offense, but that is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard. That's just the lazy way of saying "I don't feel like changing a few things around so we'll give it a mystery ranking." It needs to be either 99 or, if you expand the system, a value in the hundreds.

It seems more reasonable to make a difficulty scale with difficulty values more evenly partitioned. That's why RATO as a 98 doesn't at all belong within the company of vrofl as a 99; as hard as those two songs are, vrofl is still indescribably much harder. If I had it my way, vrofl should've been a joke song that would briefly appear before being removed, just like Whimper Wall. However, it's been immortalized into the FFR song list at this point, so now I see "??" as making do with file borne out of bad judgment. People would rage if this joke file was removed from the game, because this file was the top reward for official tournaments.*

The other suggestion you've made on expanding the difficulty scale further into the 100s becomes a little too detailed; and of course, people just find it more likeable to have a difficulty scale constrained within a 100-point value. Because I highly doubt anyone would remotely want a file that comes close to vrofl in difficulty, having vrofl as the lone "??" seems acceptable.


*~IDEA~: MAYBE if vrofl was removed altogether and replaced by another completely exclusive song, still only attainable through winning tournaments, this would solve the problem. This would work perfectly if it isn't for people hanging onto nostalgia of vrofl's infamy. I don't miss vrofl, but others might. Solution: make vrofl yet another token of sorts, have the former vrofl token turned into a different song. Future tokens handed out from official tournaments, as well as those that previous winners already had, will turn into the new song. The scoring table for vrofl may need to be transferred when it becomes a new token, if that's possible.

[Guest15937]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

Honestly, if "??" ratings are implemented, TWWW and omgwtftok3n should get them along with vROFL because the difficulty of these songs are so variable from person to person. vROFL could also get a "???" rating (to signify that it is 100+, harder than anything else on the songlist)

[ssbmchamp]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

*~IDEA~: MAYBE if vrofl was removed altogether and replaced by another completely exclusive song, still only attainable through winning tournaments, this would solve the problem. This would work perfectly if it isn't for people hanging onto nostalgia of vrofl's infamy. I don't miss vrofl, but others might. Solution: make vrofl yet another token of sorts, have the former vrofl token turned into a different song. Future tokens handed out from official tournaments, as well as those that previous winners already had, will turn into the new song. The scoring table for vrofl may need to be transferred when it becomes a new token, if that's possible.

I will cry if you get rid of VROFL....like literally cry. That's what's motivating me to get to 50 bil. Idc how "shitty of a file it may be, I want it! If that get's taken away I would probably stop playing.

[Pseudo Enigma]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

I'm all for vROFL being removed completely. It's a joke file that even though has a very good achievement value in, is not an actually good file. If that thing were submitted today I am sure the judges would obliterate it with [--]s and then laugh about it. We should think about the overall quality of our files.

[bmah]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

Honestly, if "??" ratings are implemented, TWWW and omgwtftok3n should get them along with vROFL because the difficulty of these songs are so variable from person to person. vROFL could also get a "???" rating (to signify that it is 100+, harder than anything else on the songlist)

I've discussed the "??" on Skype with a few other people earlier, and I also mentioned those oddball songs you've listed as well to be within the "??" difficulty. However, we need to be careful in choosing what songs to elect. We don't want "??" to be a garbage dump for all sorts of weird files. Then again, a lot of weird files simply exist when they shouldn't be in the first place.

Maybe "??" isn't the right way to describe it. Maybe, like in movie DVDs, we should call these files "extras". FFR Extras. That might help legitimize this unknown difficulty being a place to put all sorts of weird files, regardless of their natures. They could even be described as "out takes" of sorts - files that were previously in the main game but put aside.

I will cry if you get rid of VROFL....like literally cry. That's what's motivating me to get to 50 bil. Idc how "shitty of a file it may be, I want it! If that get's taken away I would probably stop playing.

Yeah, I thought some people would still want it. That's why I thought vrofl could be branched into another token, while the token that you normally would get from achieving top 8 in official tournaments will become a NEW, exclusive song. You'd still have a goal to look forward to.

[One Winged Angel]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

The whole AT/M8BT argument doesn't make sense to me though, the problem with AT vs. M8BT is that you're doing a constant 150 BPM 32nd stream that forces you to transition into and out of mini-trills in AT, but you get interrupted with a lot of easier patterns in M8BT that allow you to regain your bearings, in addition to the song being 10 BPM slower without a constant point. How are these at all comparable?

AT's one handed trills are no more than four notes long iirc, whereas M8BT has several one handed trills 6-8 notes in length. It's possible to cheat these as jumps if you can hit between two frame intervals well, otherwise you'll keep the FC but destroy your PA in the process. Hitting the one handed sections in M8BT as they were intended to be hit makes it very easy to fall behind and dump a boatload of goods before resorting to mashspam to keep your combo. I know you mentioned AT is constant whereas M8BT's tougher section has breaks, but I also use the non-trill sections of AT's stream to regain my bearings if I notice I've fallen behind, as the streamier sections at the first and last bars of each measure during that section are a lot more manageable to hit than the middle two 'trilly' bars. That's just me though.

I took a look at the two scoreboards just now. Top 30 on both files look very similar, after which AT's scoreboard starts to get really sloppy with players that don't have the speed to keep up with 300bpm stream. Then again, AT's top 10 is a bit cleaner than M8BT's. I still think they're of comparable difficulty to AAA. If anything, I definitely wouldn't want to push M8BT down, so if something's to happen, I'd rather AT be pushed up.

p.s. I really like the idea of a new, legitimate file with the same unlock requirements replacing vrofl. +1

[Hateandhatred]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

I think Poison got it really. As far as Vrofl is concerned, why do we even need to rate that file on that scale?

I am a defender of Vrofl - I want it in game pretty badly. However, I see absolutely no need of putting it on the 1-99 scale. Just make it ?? or simply nothing. It's not a matter of being a newbie to FFR and being informed of the difficulty, or being someone trying to find a file to score on/reach a difficulty milestone.

In my eyes, Vrofl is just some easter egg of ffr, you can get and play, but is pointless. It only qualifies as a file and that's it. Same sort of idea with Whimper Wall (why did this have to go, it was pretty cool! xD).

[qqwref]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

IMO we shouldn't stick to the 99 limit. What happens when we add more files around that level, which we very well might considering all the new 88+s? If we eventually allow raw scoring it would make it a lot more reasonable to have files around RATO level or harder (imagine some fun, hard midare style dumps), and instead of worrying about being stuck against the 99 wall, we could just play around with the difficulties around that level. Maybe someday we'll have DP at 102, RATO at 106, and vrofl at 117. Or something :)

[Patashu]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

make vROFL 255, no one plays it except to pass it anyway so it's not like anyone cares how hard it is

[bmah]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum

IMO we shouldn't stick to the 99 limit. What happens when we add more files around that level, which we very well might considering all the new 88+s? If we eventually allow raw scoring it would make it a lot more reasonable to have files around RATO level or harder (imagine some fun, hard midare style dumps), and instead of worrying about being stuck against the 99 wall, we could just play around with the difficulties around that level. Maybe someday we'll have DP at 102, RATO at 106, and vrofl at 117. Or something :)

I suppose that could be considered if FFR does go raw scoring, but I haven't even come to close to speculating to that point yet.