Secret and Purchased

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Secret and Purchased

Didn't read any responses to the OP, but my response simply is this:

Why try and fix/change something that isn't broken/problematic? Leave it be.

[hi19hi19]

Re: Secret and Purchased

I was explaining to bmah why I posted this thread, and he suggested I put my explanation here too.

In response to the people who want to leave the "accumulation" method of secret files, think of it from a game design/player reward perspective for a moment.
I always figure the "carrot" from being able to unlock more songs via purchasing them was better than the "grind" of just accumulating credits. People like rewards, secret songs feel like they're expected, purchased songs are a choice you are making with your hard earned credits... it's a subtle psychological difference. But that's what makes games such as World of Warcraft so addictive- going out and BUYING/EARNING your gear feels so much better than just being handed it after a month of playing or whatever.

Didn't read any responses to the OP, but my response simply is this:

Why try and fix/change something that isn't broken/problematic? Leave it be.

It's broken because it's a confusing mechanic for new players, and the occasional "where did XXX secret song go!? it was my favorite!" threads can attest to that. How many people do you think are confused and DIDN'T post about it on the forums.

I thought the idea was to make this game more accessible and improve it, not cling to confusing conventions just because they've been around for a whole.

[justin_ator]

Re: Secret and Purchased

^^ I honestly think that you guys should also read the responses in addition to the OP, as people have stated some good points and we're actually discussing this (not directed at you AJ, nothing against you lol, just mean in general).

[rushyrulz]

Re: Secret and Purchased

It's broken because it's a confusing mechanic for new players, and the occasional "where did XXX secret song go!? it was my favorite!" threads can attest to that. How many people do you think are confused and DIDN'T post about it on the forums.

There's about 4 threads per year on this topic at best, it's not something that causes a great deal of confusion from my personal viewpoint.

[justin_ator]

Re: Secret and Purchased

Why cause any confusion for new people? As I stated before the secret genre made no sense to me until around the time I got pissed off because I lost my secret songs because I purchased a song.

[rushyrulz]

Re: Secret and Purchased

So the solution is to make everything purchased? If newbies read the stickies like they're highly advised to, confusion wouldn't be an issue. Besides, after you learn that purchasing songs takes away from secret, you learn the system in all of 5 minutes.

[justin_ator]

Re: Secret and Purchased

I feel like it's just pointless to have two contradicting systems, especially when "holding onto too many credits" is something we always hear the staff mentioning.

[jimerax]

Re: Secret and Purchased

I don't think that idea is very realistic for now, sorry.

a few things:
- Secret reqs can be GTS instead of credits.
- Adding more purchased songs can solve the credit usage issue.
- Changing some reqs for secret/purchased for the consistency is possible too.

[devonin]

Re: Secret and Purchased

It's funny that anybody is considering this a credit sink.

For one, holding 150k credits unable to use them is exactly the same number of credits "gone" as spending 150k credits. For two, making them all purchased means I can skip the ones I don't want to have, which ends up being a credit generator, not sinker. For three, there's no credit economy that needs sinking. What do you use them for besides unlocking secret songs and buying purchased ones? Tournies are credit-neutral since the prizes come from donations, but there's nothing tangible to acquire with them that we need to worry about inflation for.

If I was going to change the secret genre I'd do it this way:

Start tracking credits earned from game play as separate from credits on hand.

Once you have enough credits earned from game play to meet the current secret value, the song unlocks permanently even if you then go below the needed amount.

This way you need to actually -earn- the credits to unlock the genre, but you don't lose access to the songs to get the purchased ones.

It sets up a system where you keep unlocking secret songs from gameplay no matter how many credits you ever have on hand (Once I've earned 149k credits from gameplay, and then spend to 0 on the purchased genre, at 1000 more credits I'm at 150k and unlock Karma) while still letting you spend down to get purchased songs as you go.

Edit: This is basically what JX said about making Secret based on GTS

[hi19hi19]

Re: Secret and Purchased

It's funny that anybody is considering this a credit sink.

For one, holding 150k credits unable to use them is exactly the same number of credits "gone" as spending 150k credits. For two, making them all purchased means I can skip the ones I don't want to have, which ends up being a credit generator, not sinker. For three, there's no credit economy that needs sinking. What do you use them for besides unlocking secret songs and buying purchased ones? Tournies are credit-neutral since the prizes come from donations, but there's nothing tangible to acquire with them that we need to worry about inflation for.

Except that the 150k credits are still there if you want to spend them (say, as payment to someone for drawing you a new avatar), whereas in this system they are gone. Thus, credit sink.
Also there's not a solid economic reason for wanting to regulate credits, but I felt it was worth noting.

So the solution is to make everything purchased? If newbies read the stickies like they're highly advised to, confusion wouldn't be an issue. Besides, after you learn that purchasing songs takes away from secret, you learn the system in all of 5 minutes.

This is precisely the kind of attitude that makes for poor game design.
"Oh well I've only seen people complaining about the problem a few times, so clearly it doesn't matter"
Um, no, think of how many people might have gotten frustrated and quit without saying something on the forums first. After going through this thread it seems like it's not such an uncommon issue to have early in your time on FFR! Besides, even one thread of that nature should indicate something is broken- if the solution is "well you just need to read this one line on one of FFR's 6000 stickies" then maybe the system itself needs a little clarification.

If I was going to change the secret genre I'd do it this way:

Start tracking credits earned from game play as separate from credits on hand.

Once you have enough credits earned from game play to meet the current secret value, the song unlocks permanently even if you then go below the needed amount.

This way you need to actually -earn- the credits to unlock the genre, but you don't lose access to the songs to get the purchased ones.

It sets up a system where you keep unlocking secret songs from gameplay no matter how many credits you ever have on hand (Once I've earned 149k credits from gameplay, and then spend to 0 on the purchased genre, at 1000 more credits I'm at 150k and unlock Karma) while still letting you spend down to get purchased songs as you go.

Edit: This is basically what JX said about making Secret based on GTS

This is a very good suggestion as well. It would solve all the issues I have with the current Secret system.

[justin_ator]

Re: Secret and Purchased

I don't think that idea is very realistic for now, sorry.

a few things:
- Secret reqs can be GTS instead of credits.
- Adding more purchased songs can solve the credit usage issue.
- Changing some reqs for secret/purchased for the consistency is possible too.

Only thing in this post I don't agree with I guess (can't think of a better term than disagree with) is the bolded point, since it's somewhat unrelated to the discussion about the genres and more focused on the credit usage situation.

Whether the credit issue is out of hand or not is really a pointless argument/point, so I will remove it.

I really do think it would be better to have one "Credit-Value reward system" rather than two that are completely the opposite of one another..

[TheSaxRunner05]

Re: Secret and Purchased

1. **** nostalgia. If it can be changed and it helps overall, then do it if the community likes it. (And yes I apply this to the legacy genre as well.)

I agree with this point. If something is out of date an confusing, change it. (I would also like the legacy genre moved to token ranks lol)

[rushyrulz]

Re: Secret and Purchased

bring back the gambling hall with a 40% success rate and 5% house, that'll be a credit sink.

[devonin]

Re: Secret and Purchased

40% success rate means there's a chance both people lose. Nobody will do that.

You flip a coin and give 95% of the credits to the winner and keep 5% house.

[wildfireskunk]

Re: Secret and Purchased

40% success rate means there's a chance both people lose. Nobody will do that.

You flip a coin and give 95% of the credits to the winner and keep 5% house.

Nono. Blackjack Blackjack Revolution is the answer