Classical Music Attribution

[qqwref]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

I like the idea of organizing classical music more, but I worry the proposal is being way too technical. For instance, there are songs whose names will be changed too drastically, like Molto Vivace, which has been known as such for so long that I'd say it would actually be a really bad decision to change it now. Also, a lot of these names get really technical to the point where songs basically have several ID numbers attached to them, numbers which don't provide any useful info to someone who isn't a scholar of classical music.

I mean, honestly, ""Rondo Alla Turca" Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3 v2"? That's too long to show up in its entirety in the song menu (keep in mind it's very important that the v2 is shown in a clear place to distinguish the versions of the song), and the extra numbers and data essentially mean nothing to someone who isn't a scholar of Mozart's classical repertoire. From my point of view, "Rondo Alla Turca" is the common name of the song, and "Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3" is just information about the song's style and origins, which can be easily looked up with a Google search for anyone who's interested. If you're going to include all that lookup data you might as well write "Toxiferous Dystopia NG115042 Op.10 (cut)" too. But if you really want to include information like that, it would probably be better to put it in with the author (e.g.: "Mozart (No.11 K331 Mvt.3) pf. Philip Glass") or the Song Style field (e.g.: "Classical - No.11 K331 Mvt.3").

[hi19hi19]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

I'd argue that we are being that technical with other songs too...
To use your Newgrounds example, {Rose} is in fact a different song from Rose. We'd be doing a disservice to cornandbeans by not properly labeling his song, and it's similar for classical music.


Putting the opus and number in the Song Style field is a very good idea, though.

Some titles I still feel should be changed (Molto Vivace has nothing to do with the name of the song, I mean it's as if you called Blue Army as "Techno Music" umm no, that's not the name of the song)

[Kynosaur]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

Rondo Alla Turca really needs to be called that otherwise far less people will play it because they won't know what it is. What about just "Rondo Alla Turca" followed by the K number?

Also I disagree with putting usernames as "performers" when the music is a MIDI file or remastering etc. That's not performing. But that's just my Op.inion :P

[hi19hi19]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

Rondo Alla Turca really needs to be called that otherwise far less people will play it because they won't know what it is. What about just "Rondo Alla Turca" followed by the K number?

Not sure if you looked at my final list but I proposed changing it to "Rondo Alla Turca" Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3. As you can see the common name is right there, so there will be no confusion.

The only ones that are changing dramatically are Turkish March (to Marcia Alla Turca, which I think is not too bad), Etude in E Major to "Tristesse" Etude, and Molto Vivace, which I've already explained is just a horrible mis-naming to begin with. Everything else has the name by which FFR is used to calling it, PLUS the correct information.

Also I disagree with putting usernames as "performers" when the music is a MIDI file or remastering etc. That's not performing. But that's just my Op.inion :P

There are no usernames as performers atm. Only Xandertrax once, credited as an arranger because the version of Mephisto Waltz No.1 in FFR is not the same as Liszt's original, i.e. Xandertrax arranged it.
I suppose we could take Xandertrax out of the performer attribution entirely and label it as -Shortened-, not entirely sure why subin went with this method but it was still technically correct so I went with it.

I mean, honestly, ""Rondo Alla Turca" Sonata No.11 K331 Mvt.3 v2"? That's too long to show up in its entirety in the song menu (keep in mind it's very important that the v2 is shown in a clear place to distinguish the versions of the song)

The length of the text field on the legacy engine is definitely a valid issue. Not sure what we would do about this, as it's caused other songs to be mis-labeled as well (Of course you need... need me is labeled wrong, the true name of that song is stupidly long lol)
I'd argue that we should change the names AND find a way to make more space on the engine, but maybe that's not possible. I'd love if someone more admin-ish could weigh in on this, *wink wink*

[qqwref]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

The only ones that are changing dramatically are Turkish March (to Marcia Alla Turca, which I think is not too bad)

Hang on a bit. That's just a translation issue, and since this is a largely English speaking community we should use an English name if there is one. In the case of classical pieces it's in our best interest to use a labeling that is easiest for people to find/understand - that's why we're using common names in the first place, no?

EDIT: I have a feeling that the "Marcia Alla Turca" name was not favored because Beethoven was Italian (I mean, he isn't ) but because Italian was essentially the dominant language of music at the time and there was no reason to buck convention. I'd argue that it shows no more disrespect to translate the name into English than if we were to translate Newton's books into English from the original Latin.

Not sure what we would do about this, as it's caused other songs to be mis-labeled as well (Of course you need... need me is labeled wrong, the true name of that song is stupidly long lol)
I'd argue that we should change the names AND find a way to make more space on the engine, but maybe that's not possible.

Well, here's an idea: allow very long names, but if the names are too long we'd shorten them on the engine in a specific way. I'd suggest to include as much of the start of the name as we can, then " ... " and the last 5ish characters. So Piano Concerto 1 'ANTI-ARES' (For Kirby) could be written as "Piano Concerto 1 ... Kirby)" in the song list. Another alternative would be to simply have a shortened display name that would show in the song menu/list, with the full name showing on the results screen. Of course there would still be finite length, so we should choose names that are short while still being properly descriptive (which, IMO, for classical music, means having enough information for someone to find the exact song used in the chart).

[hi19hi19]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

I wouldn't mind leaving Turkish March with that name. Makes sense, similar to the way we've been going with English in a lot of other places.

[Kynosaur]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

As you can see the common name is right there, so there will be no confusion.

I was talking about a good 'short' title which also has the common name. So without the whole movement 3, saying it's a sonata etc.

[hi19hi19]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

I really like those changes, especially putting v2 in the common name. Makes a lot of sense. It's a bit odd to have a different format from the Minute Waltz v2, but that's okay.
You could possibly use something like "Minute" Waltz v2 Op.64, No.1, but that seems a little contrived.

The Moonlight Sonata changes are technically fine and make the title short enough. It's okay they don't fit the format of the others, because we've decided readability > consistency.

You also didn't make my changes from earlier- Philip Glass should be P.Glass and I'm pretty sure Badinerie needs a movement number.

This reduces the song titles with drastic changes to just two:
Etude in E Major -> "Tristesse" Etude Op.10, No.3 -Shortened-
Molto Vivace -> Transcendental Etude No.2

These two are really changes that need to be made anyway. Molto Vivace, as I've said before, is pretty horribly wrong.
While just Etude in E Major is actually enough to identify which song we're talking about (Chopin only wrote one etude in that key) it's a lot less descriptive than simply naming it correctly. Additionally, having a name for the Etude, "Tristesse", will make refferring to it in Brag Board threads and such more convenient.



Still waiting for an official response to this. With my changes from earlier, Subin's list above is far more technically accurate than what we have now, without sacrificing clarity.

[hi19hi19]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

Maple Leaf Rag
Fig Leaf Rag
The Entertainer
Jelly Roll Blues

Ragtime pieces should be much less of an issue, as they were usually published with just a common name, i.e. Maple Leaf Rag. From what I can tell the titles are fine and they just need updates in the artist to match the proper format.

If they are not on IMLSP you could check Perfessor Bill's website. He's a ragtime historian and professional ragtime pianist, and has some good information if you're looking for sources.

[hi19hi19]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

Updated OP.

[bmah]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

Extremely old thread, but I think it's worth the bump to revive the discussion of improperly titled classical songs (as well as possibly any other improperly titled songs that we may have in the game). It's unfortunate that the incorrect names have been around for so long that they're cemented into our minds and it would look strange in any other way, but at the same time, I think it's important to properly attribute basic information to any song in the game: the correct song name and artist.

[iironiic]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

100% with this idea for classical works. To address Leaves of the Wind, I received permissions from Issac Shepherd and stepped his original song before I went on hiatus. The song title can remain as Leaves of the Wind since that is how Shepherd is referencing his work (more on the flavor of contemporary/easy listening vs. classical).

[Zageron]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

This is awesome. I totally agree this should be something that the GMs or content managers do.
CMs and GMs if there isn't enough control or it isn't easy enough, let me know, and we can write better tools.

[bmah]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

And for starters on incorrect song titles not related to classical music, I recall the song "Stepfile This" was actually a stolen song from a different artist. I can't seem to find the original thread calling this out, but in addition to being a different artist (of which I cannot remember if the one in-game now is the correct artist or not), the song title was also different. IIRC "Stepfile This" is just a placeholder name to disguise the actual song from which it was originally stolen. At least get the title right.

Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the original thread which was probably many many years ago.

[XelNya]

Re: Classical Music Attribution

Extremely old thread, but I think it's worth the bump to revive the discussion of improperly titled classical songs (as well as possibly any other improperly titled songs that we may have in the game). It's unfortunate that the incorrect names have been around for so long that they're cemented into our minds and it would look strange in any other way, but at the same time, I think it's important to properly attribute basic information to any song in the game: the correct song name and artist.

Hey we don't bump old threads tho