WTF Replay.

[qqwref]

Re: WTF Replay.

Shouldn't it be relatively easy (from a programming standpoint, for someone who is familiar with the internals of the FFR engine pre- and post-avmiss) to modify the replay engine so it doesn't have avmisses, or perhaps to modify the current engine so it will play replays? I heard someone say once that doing that might destroy all current replays, but if the replay itself is just stored as a bunch of arrow/frame pairs, that shouldn't be affected.

[Punk Kitten]

Re: WTF Replay.

Watching people get reamed for not using the forums constantly or having an honest to god question and not knowing how to look for it is really getting out of hand. The concept of just simply answering someones question is quite foreign to a lot of people now a days. Its pretty much, lol I have an opinion so I have to force it on someone. Its a tired act that really shows how immature people act and its quite sad.

On a related matter, good job on the FC and like everyone said, its something that has been around for a long time and chances are with the way the site is being handled lately, it will not be fixed in the near future or possibly ever.

Why thank you sir.



Also, Foxfire, I personally believe that Synthlight could use you to fix the whole problem.

[foxfire667]

Re: WTF Replay.

The problem isn't with the replays or the recording process, the problem is with the version of the game engine that the replays use.

When you play, the replay saves all the song/speed/mods information, and then logs a series of "At time X, they pressed button Y" entries, and then when you play the replay, it manually re-plays the song as you watch, using the timestamp information saved in the replay log.

This all works exactly like you suppose it does.

The problem is that you played the game on a new updated version of the game engine where avmisses don't exist anymore, so you are getting perfect/perfect instead of miss/average/boo like you -would- have gotten, hitting the exact same buttons at the exact same time on the old engine.

So when the replay re-plays the game on the old engine, and hits the same buttons at the same time you did, you get miss/average/boo in the replay instead of perfect/perfect

Now I do have to say this, I have only been playing FFR for the past 3 or so months, so I don't think I have ever gotten to experience the the average miss glitch (thank god, I'd probably punch walls in knowing the game is actually screwing up my stats), so I cannot truly understand how the average miss glitch originally worked or was coded. How the game is coded at the moment, and I would assume pretty much sense the game was started, was when you hit a key that represented an arrow, the game would send this value into the game, and if an arrow was there when you pressed the key, you would get a rating of "Perfect", "Good", or "Average", while if an arrow was not there, the game would count the key as a "miss" or a "boo" (except in older versions, when not hitting a key without hitting an arrow counted as a miss and broke your combo). If you send a key to the game and the game is coded to read it, it would be FORCED to count it as SOMETHING, which is why I do not understand how throughout a song, a miss could be possible, UNLESS that arrow was NOT hit by the user due to lack of a key-press.

As far as the replays go...if I have values that represent where EXACTLY an arrow is intended to be hit, and it cannot be altered by lag, the score is really forced to be whatever the code tells it to be (UNLESS it fails before the sequence is complete, due to excess misses or boos that are programmed in the script in a row). I honestly do not believe that if I had the replay script that should correctly implement an FC on lets say, Monstrous Turtles, for the sake of being on topic with the particular replay that was screwing up in this thread, that the replay would miss or boo (unless the script was programmed to do so). Yes, I COULD be wrong, but with the strong evidence I have given with my Excite bike replay modification, I feel that average misses are from one of two things:

1) An error in the code creation, which could make times for certain notes alter or be recorded incorrectly, maybe due to a compatibility issue of FFR versions, that could cause misses, boos, averages, or other incorrect stats in the replay.

2) Some sort of error in the replay shockwave flash object itself, which could make the harder songs in the game glitch up, and the script not be correctly followed. In other words, the average miss glitch everyone is talking about, for the replay. Although I find this to be rather tough to believe...I would need evidence of problem code, to support this.

Chances are, in my opinion, it is probably #1 of the two reasons, because, like I said, if you have a script, and the game is programmed to follow that script, it WILL carry it out. This also explains why if you hit "try this level again" after the replay is over, that is just misses all of the notes and fails, because the replay file is NOT reloaded, after the replay ends, and the page needs to be refreshed in order to re-watch it.

[foxfire667]

Re: WTF Replay.

Also, Foxfire, I personally believe that Synthlight could use you to fix the whole problem.

Thanks! I would love to try to fix the replay situation, if I was ever given the chance, but I doubt I will though. I think that if the administrators / moderators were to look into fixing the replays for a little while, they could come to some of the same conclusions I have made, and fix the problem as well.


Is it an issue of money FFR staff? If someone would go out of their way to even TRY to fix the replays in our behalf, I would gladly donate some additional money to help out the cause, and I'm sure others would as well.

[x After Dawn x]

Re: WTF Replay.

Thanks! I would love to try to fix the replay situation, if I was ever given the chance, but I doubt I will though. I think that if the administrators / moderators were to look into fixing the replays for a little while, they could come to some of the same conclusions I have made, and fix the problem as well.


Is it an issue of money FFR staff? If someone would go out of their way to even TRY to fix the replays in our behalf, I would gladly donate some additional money to help out the cause, and I'm sure others would as well.

The issue is that the admin that coded the new engine for the FFR R1 game and who was going to code a new engine for the replays decided to leave the site unexpectedly. I remember making a thread asking Tass a long time ago to hire new admins or something to fix the problem, but they ignored the request saying how it wasn't mandatory or something.

[NSane]

Re: WTF Replay.

Replays, fixable? Of course. Will it ever be implemented? Probably not, seeing as how replays are a valuable resource when tracking down cheaters / botters, you can tell by the avmisses, etc. So uploading the fix would only allow more cheaters to get away with cheating, like flukerun over there.

[foxfire667]

Re: WTF Replay.

Replays, fixable? Of course. Will it ever be implemented? Probably not, seeing as how replays are a valuable resource when tracking down cheaters / botters, you can tell by the avmisses, etc. So uploading the fix would only allow more cheaters to get away with cheating, like flukerun over there.

To be honest, fixing the replays can only show how good a person did on a song (or a bot for that matter), so seeing a fixed replay, could in turn show a AAA on a song that either cannot be AAA'd, or something of that matter, which could rise up suspicion of cheating. For example, if a person AAA's 4 for guru's only songs in a row, and the replay evidence shows this to be true, they could be easily spotted as botters, and it would most likely be true. As far as replays at the moment go, you really cannot tell crap, because if you play a harder song (I usually have problems with my replays if the songs are like difficulty 8 or above or the songs are over 3:00 long) the replay makes your stats look much worse than they originally did, regardless if you are a bot of not. Not getting an FC or AAA on a replay that says you have, cannot prove the person is a botter or a hacker.

There have actually been cases, where replays play BETTER than the persons stats carried out in the song. I seen this in the case of Mr. Rubix with the song "Vertex beta vROFL" when his final score in the replay, was about 1.8 million, but his best score recorded on FFR, was only about 1.4 million, which makes no sense at all really.

I can modify any one of my replays to be any score I wanted to if I wanted to spend the time doing it, but I am really just trying to see what the problem with the replays are.

Here is another replay mod I did to my own replay of "Horizon Remix" from a few months back when I thought the FC I got was amazing, but the replay decided NOT to give me the FC, and made me miss notes 92-93. I fixed the problem and now the replay gives me the FC (with an additional "BOO", but whatever). Substitute it in the server and see for yourself!

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

[foxfire667]

Re: WTF Replay.

The issue is that the admin that coded the new engine for the FFR R1 game and who was going to code a new engine for the replays decided to leave the site unexpectedly. I remember making a thread asking Tass a long time ago to hire new admins or something to fix the problem, but they ignored the request saying how it wasn't mandatory or something.

Even if that was the case, I'm sure Synthlight or any of the other administrators that helped with the creation of the site, could have messed with the replays and fixed the problem if they really wanted to.

It might not be MANDATORY, but it is defiantly something that should be looked into. Why have a feature that doesn't work properly when it could be fixed with most likely only a few weeks of effort?

[leonid]

Re: WTF Replay.

@NSane: How about providing both avmiss replays and fixed replays next to each other?

[qqwref]

Re: WTF Replay.

@NSane: How about providing both avmiss replays and fixed replays next to each other?

This. If the avmiss replay engine is important to prevent cheaters, it should still be accessible on the website for people to use, even if the fixed replay engine would be the default.


foxfire667: According to what I've seen and figured out, the avmiss glitch was not caused by any of the things you proposed; instead it was an error in the way keypresses were matched against arrows. Each arrow has a 7-frame window in which it can be hit (average, good, perfect, perfect, perfect, good, good). In the old version, if you pressed a key while in the window for two different arrows, it would hit the LATER arrow, and then the game would think that you had progressed past the earlier arrow and not allow it to be hit anymore. Hence the average miss - the result was often that, when trying to PA the first arrow in a minijack, the second arrow would be hit at the very beginning of its window (thus getting an average) and the first arrow would become unhittable and generate a miss. (If you pressed the button both times, in an attempt to hit both notes, you'd rack up a boo as well.) However, in the new version, pressing a key while in the window of two arrows will hit the first one, leaving the second one to be hit by your next keypress. So when arrows were too close together, it used to be difficult (or impossible, if the notes were two or fewer frames apart) to PA the first arrow, but now every song that doesn't have more than one note per frame per arrow can theoretically be AAA'd.

About detecting cheating by watching replays: many bots will hit each note in the same perfect frame of the window (such as the one perfect frame when the note is just on top of the receptor) and you can often detect this by watching the avmisses in the replay. If the bot hits all the notes late, for instance, the replay will get an avmiss in pretty much every place it possibly can. I believe -FlukeRun- was an example of this.

[MrRubix]

Re: WTF Replay.

I do think that replays need to actually REPLAY what was played -- it does need fixing. However, avmisses provide valuable information, and so the current engine needs to still be intact. Perhaps some sort of option switch or whatever.

[devonin]

Re: WTF Replay.

Now I do have to say this, I have only been playing FFR for the past 3 or so months, so I don't think I have ever gotten to experience the the average miss glitch (thank god, I'd probably punch walls in knowing the game is actually screwing up my stats), so I cannot truly understand how the average miss glitch originally worked or was coded. How the game is coded at the moment, and I would assume pretty much sense the game was started, was when you hit a key that represented an arrow, the game would send this value into the game, and if an arrow was there when you pressed the key, you would get a rating of "Perfect", "Good", or "Average", while if an arrow was not there, the game would count the key as a "miss" or a "boo" (except in older versions, when not hitting a key without hitting an arrow counted as a miss and broke your combo). If you send a key to the game and the game is coded to read it, it would be FORCED to count it as SOMETHING, which is why I do not understand how throughout a song, a miss could be possible, UNLESS that arrow was NOT hit by the user due to lack of a key-press.

As far as the replays go...if I have values that represent where EXACTLY an arrow is intended to be hit, and it cannot be altered by lag, the score is really forced to be whatever the code tells it to be (UNLESS it fails before the sequence is complete, due to excess misses or boos that are programmed in the script in a row). I honestly do not believe that if I had the replay script that should correctly implement an FC on lets say, Monstrous Turtles, for the sake of being on topic with the particular replay that was screwing up in this thread, that the replay would miss or boo (unless the script was programmed to do so). Yes, I COULD be wrong, but with the strong evidence I have given with my Excite bike replay modification, I feel that average misses are from one of two things:

1) An error in the code creation, which could make times for certain notes alter or be recorded incorrectly, maybe due to a compatibility issue of FFR versions, that could cause misses, boos, averages, or other incorrect stats in the replay.

2) Some sort of error in the replay shockwave flash object itself, which could make the harder songs in the game glitch up, and the script not be correctly followed. In other words, the average miss glitch everyone is talking about, for the replay. Although I find this to be rather tough to believe...I would need evidence of problem code, to support this.

Chances are, in my opinion, it is probably #1 of the two reasons, because, like I said, if you have a script, and the game is programmed to follow that script, it WILL carry it out. This also explains why if you hit "try this level again" after the replay is over, that is just misses all of the notes and fails, because the replay file is NOT reloaded, after the replay ends, and the page needs to be refreshed in order to re-watch it.

You're still not understanding avmisses. Let me try another way:

For a given note, there's a set of frames around it. Hitting the note in a given frame will give you a given accuracy measurement.

good
perfect <----this is where the arrow is perfectly in the receptor
perfect 
perfect
good
average
CLEAR

The way avmisses worked was like this...The game in its earlier incarnation would only read an input for an arrow if there were no arrows later than it in the input field. So you have two notes that are say, four frames apart (A 4-framer), and it would look like this:

good	
perfect	
perfect	<---Arrow 1
perfect	
good	
average	
CLEAR	<---Arrow 2

You hit arrow 1 as a mid-perfect, and then arrow 2 enters the input area, to be played as normal. -If- however, you hit arrow 1 as a -late- perfect, when you pressed the button, it looked like this:

good	
perfect	<---Arrow 1
perfect	
perfect	
good	
average	<---Arrow 2
CLEAR

And the game went "Pressing the button now? You must be trying to hit arrow 2. So you MISSED arrow 1, got an AVERAGE on arrow 2, and then usually a BOO because you pressed the button twice but only registered the hit on one arrow."

This is what an AVMISS is.

A later version of the game engine was programmed to look the opposite way. When you pressed an input, it would look for the arrow that was furthest -up- that hadn't been played yet in the input area, instead of the furthest down, so that you could actually hit each arrow in a framer and have it register properly.

The replay engine is still the outmoded version that isn't looking the right way to not avmiss, so since the replays again are actually re-playing the song from scratch using your inputs and timestamps from the gameplay, you are getting proper PA when you play the game, and the replay is avmissing.

[foxfire667]

Re: WTF Replay.

You're still not understanding avmisses. Let me try another way:

For a given note, there's a set of frames around it. Hitting the note in a given frame will give you a given accuracy measurement.

good
perfect <----this is where the arrow is perfectly in the receptor
perfect 
perfect
good
average
CLEAR

The way avmisses worked was like this...The game in its earlier incarnation would only read an input for an arrow if there were no arrows later than it in the input field. So you have two notes that are say, four frames apart (A 4-framer), and it would look like this:

good	
perfect	
perfect	<---Arrow 1
perfect	
good	
average	
CLEAR	<---Arrow 2

You hit arrow 1 as a mid-perfect, and then arrow 2 enters the input area, to be played as normal. -If- however, you hit arrow 1 as a -late- perfect, when you pressed the button, it looked like this:

good	
perfect	<---Arrow 1
perfect	
perfect	
good	
average	<---Arrow 2
CLEAR

And the game went "Pressing the button now? You must be trying to hit arrow 2. So you MISSED arrow 1, got an AVERAGE on arrow 2, and then usually a BOO because you pressed the button twice but only registered the hit on one arrow."

This is what an AVMISS is.

A later version of the game engine was programmed to look the opposite way. When you pressed an input, it would look for the arrow that was furthest -up- that hadn't been played yet in the input area, instead of the furthest down, so that you could actually hit each arrow in a framer and have it register properly.

The replay engine is still the outmoded version that isn't looking the right way to not avmiss, so since the replays again are actually re-playing the song from scratch using your inputs and timestamps from the gameplay, you are getting proper PA when you play the game, and the replay is avmissing.

Thank you! My god, I have been trying to figure out how the average miss glitch could have worked, and sense I never got to experience the situation myself, I didn't think about that as much as I thought about the code itself delivering the replay specs.

So basically, if two or more arrows are within the same frame range, the game would overlook the higher arrow, and take the lower one instead.

This poses another question though, if all the coding needed to fix the replays is a simple inversion on whether it goes after the highest arrow, or the lowest arrow, why hasn't it been at least attempted to be fixed yet?

Also, I have a solution to that problem, considering that it would be true botters' replays usually have such results, and sense moderators / administrators are the ones that ban botters and what not, couldn't they make an option to retain the OLD replay module for reviewing a possible botter, but use the new replay module for everyone else just looking at the replays? I'm saying this because:
1) It gives us the updated replays, but gives you the option to review replays in the old version if necessary.

2) I would assume most people that bot, understand that there replays could expose them, and they could most likely play a series of easier songs to make their botted replay be removed from the face of their profile.

Anyway, sense now I know what the problem is, maybe if I replace some code from the ffr updated SWF, into the replay player as far as hitting arrows go, I might be able to get some results. Wish me luck, I'm on a mission!

[devonin]

Re: WTF Replay.

As I understand it, the game engine version that replays run on isn't "The game version, but unupdated" it is "The version that all the widgets run on"

If you aren't familiar with widgets, it was another project of the company wherein bands with a myspace page and a sufficient number of fans/friends could get a widget made for their myspace profile. The widget was a stripped down, simplified version of the game engine, that had two or three difficulty versions of 2 or 3 of the band's songs, and could be accessed both on their myspace page, and on the FFR site. The band got exposure on FFR, and FFR got exposure on Myspace.

I think the reason why the replay engine has never been updated is that it would also require updating the widget engine, since they are the same engine, and that might or might not require all bands with a widget to update, or otherwise modify the version running on their myspace, or else would require creating a new copy of the replay engine with the new avmiss fixing modifications and divorcing it from the widget engine entirely (None of the widget songs except for what, blooddrunk? Are even -remotely- difficult or in need of an avmiss fixing version of the engine) and that would need just enough work, and just enough access to the company servers, that the shortlist of people who -can- do it, matches up with the shortlist of people who -aren't- actually doing anything on the website anymore.

Simple asnwer: Yes, fixing it is possible, Yes fixing it probably woudln't even be that difficult or time consuming, but there had been priorities all along that were higher than fixing replays (Which was, at the time of the avmiss fix not an especially old feature anyway, so it wasn't like they'd been labouring under avmissed replays for years and desperately wanted out) and by the time "fixing replays" would have been near the top of the list, the company didn't have any active coders anymore.

[MrRubix]

Re: WTF Replay.

Funny thing was, the avmiss fix was almost not implemented. At the time, the admins were debating whether or not it was worth fixing the avmisses or if that time was better spent moving forward into Third Style.