Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

[hXcalltheway]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

Holy shit too time consuming to read all these. Yall have fun debating this. I'm sure the opinions of just you few will be whatever the million other players want too Just saying. I could give two shits what the final decision is to be honest.

[BahamutZER0]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

Tbh, I've only read some of Stavie's posts but my thoughts:

As long as there is a continuous steady stream of more difficult songs to get tier points on, aren't they just as accurate as choosing the songs in clumps at the high end of each ingame difficulty? I mean the ingame difficulties when you get down to it are just arbitrary cutoffs anyway. Sure you may miss out on getting points for being able to play more songs at the high end of some difficulty but you can always get points for low-mid songs in the next difficulty up instead.

The only problem I would see with this is that you lose some ability to distinguish players at the absolute high end of the spectrum depending on how FGOs are distributed, which I wouldn't really know anything about since I can't even come close to playing those :V

This is assuming you don't have graduate from one difficulty to the next or something which I had gotten the sense wasn't going to be the case.

[remedy1502]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

Let's say we have 32 songs of difficulty 72 and below, and 8 songs of difficulty 73+. There are two players who have all tier points on all the songs 72 under and equal points of the 73+ of around 15 goods max (no SDG's). One of these players is incapable of getting good scores on most of the higher difficulty songs, but can shave down to a few points for this list, the other player, can also shave down goods on the few selected songs on the list and grab maybe 5 more tier points by being slightly better at these particular songs. This player however, is capable of AAA'ing a few 73's and some easier 74's that don't show up on this list, because some people are better at certain songs, and others aren't.

You strive to improve these songs and the skills they require. I see no problem with this. You make a goal, work at your goal, achieve your goal. You get more tier points, you get better, you are more on your way to bigger and better things. Or at least being able to do harder files.

They will share points all the way up the ladder except for maybe a few due to the small amount of difficult songs we've chosen (and outside of SDG'ing, it's easy to shave off good for points), but the one who can AAA some 73's and 74's is clearly has a much larger skill ability than the one who can barely shave off 73's-74's. But because they share tier points, and there are many high songs not represented, their skill gap will not be represented accurately, it could be a huge skill gap and it just doesn't accommodate to the new tier lists selections. By choosing all the hard songs, we would know based on your scores there what you are capable of all around. If you can only do the easier songs (AAA them) in a difficulty, you should be able to FC/clean FC/maybe even SDG the harder ones, but those who can AAA 3 or 4 of the harder songs, or just SDG a clump of them should be represented with a much larger skill gap, as the gap IS much larger between them, as I was trying to show with my >>>>>> display earlier.

I disagree with that bolded statement. A long time ago I had some easier FGOs SDG'd, but anything harder I would essentially have to mash to even FC it. Some people have an extremely difficult time with songs harder than their skill limit, and their PA absolutely plummets (like me). I still haven't FC'd WWE, can't FC Almost There, M8BT, and other higher FGOs without mashing. If you were around (probably not) for the 4th DF tourney, one round TTE was chosen. I got 2 goods. The next round was Kidney Stone. I had 130ish goods + avs + misses + boos.

I don't feel this list will accurately represent that skill gap. Tiers are not meant to be 'oh I'm a guru look at my elusive points', they are a system to show where players fall in skill groups and how they compare to each other, with this, it will become extremely close and some who can AAA hard songs not represented will be much closer to those who can also AAA all the easier songs represented and the skill gap will be much smaller than it actually is, thus a lot of mid players will fall close in the upper echelons with some very skilled players and those who are just new or incapable of AAA'ing 8's get stuck way behind while once you can do 9's, the difference in points closes up much quicker.

If Player B can AAA these harder files and Player A can't, Player B should be closer to being able to score well on harder songs. They might be like me where their PA goes to shit if something is too hard, but they have less distance to travel to get to that next level, which will increase that TP gap which you feel is going to be closer than it should.
Also, there are going to be FMO/FGO lists. I seriously doubt that once you can do 9s, you will be coming close to the elite players who are AAAing FGOs. This isn't finished with only 7-10. Don't forget there's more to come.

The only problem I would see with this is that you lose some ability to distinguish players at the absolute high end of the spectrum depending on how FGOs are distributed, which I wouldn't really know anything about since I can't even come close to playing those :V

I would assume that the FMO/FGO lists will include more files, and most of the harder files, based on the fact that everyone is getting better, and there are a ton of people up in FGO AAA territory, or at least have the potential to get there soon. Everyone is good now. The FGO list MUST break up the highest tier.

[stavie33]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

@Stavie:
Time commitment and dedication are also factored into the equation to obtain these tier points, which is completely understandable since rewards should be given to those who at least try. Do you believe that these two components should be rewarded as well via tier points?

I always thought those were components for level/avranks, which involve the most time commitment and dedication of any ranks on this site. I always assumed tier points was meant to give an accurate measure of skill among players. If we are rewarding for that, I liked my previous idea that there are requirement for songs in difficulties and you get 'badges' or 'achievements' listed by your username, which I always though would be cool. And they went in levels like play all of the songs in each difficulty (and once you go up a level, you can't go down a level, so if you hit the 10's, and a new 7 comes out, you don't go back down), and they would go from there FC 25%, FC 50%, FC 100%, SDG 25%, SDG 50%, SDG 100%, AAA 10%, AAA 25%, AAA 50%, AAA 100%. This is for each difficulty, and you get badges for them that would make people strive for more dedication and time commitment. But tier points I don't think are for dedication, that was always lvlranks to me, I still am under the impression tier points are for skill, are obtained through skill, and are meant to represent skill, not dedication and time commitment, that's overall and avrank.

But if you guys want tier points to have time commitment and dedication factored in, thus giving incentives through easy-mid songs, be my guest, it's not for me to decide.

[stavie33]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

I disagree with that bolded statement. A long time ago I had some easier FGOs SDG'd, but anything harder I would essentially have to mash to even FC it. Some people have an extremely difficult time with songs harder than their skill limit, and their PA absolutely plummets (like me). I still haven't FC'd WWE, can't FC Almost There, M8BT, and other higher FGOs without mashing. If you were around (probably not) for the 4th DF tourney, one round TTE was chosen. I got 2 goods. The next round was Kidney Stone. I had 130ish goods + avs + misses + boos.

FGO is a huge gap that needs fixing and specifying, as the difference between difficulties there is exponential in comparison, but that's different. I get what you're saying, and I am forgetting that there are FMO/FGO lists to come with more than 25 songs each, so that's true, as I said, I'll see how this goes, it might be fine. I guess it's just my preference at this point, because this brings back my thought that if we are still having FMO/FGO and lost of C and VC songs, then if we go down to 7's, why not choose the 7's worthy of tier points? Tier points still equate till skill points to me, that doesn't mean elite, that means it judges your skill, so I always felt that you should take the songs that require the most skill in a difficulty, because they are the ones worthy of giving you skill points. But at that level, it's a preference, so yeah, we'll see how it goes, I'm anxiously awaiting the FMO/FGO lists, but I hope nearly all FMO's are included (except the ones we said we won't include like old BG files), I'd hate to just toss out some.

[-zeroSKILL-]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

Is this directed at me? My averagerank is 8 and I have a AAA on every 10 and under songs and tons of FMO's, what are you smoking? Go check things out before you start yelling at someone for being a 'lazy ****'. I obviously play this game more diligently than you as well, so I find that comment extremely unwarranted, and once more you seem to miss the point.

Just started reading through the thread. Might have more to add to this post after I finish reading, but no, that comment was not directed at you. I know you have many FMO and even a few FGO's. Those comments are directed towards players that play nothing other than VC+ because lower difficulty files are "boring" to them. I wasn't making a personal attack on you, just a broad sweeping attack on all the players that neglect lower difficulty ranges.

edit:
k, finished reading.

If Player B can AAA these harder files and Player A can't, Player B should be closer to being able to score well on harder songs. They might be like me where their PA goes to shit if something is too hard, but they have less distance to travel to get to that next level, which will increase that TP gap which you feel is going to be closer than it should.
Also, there are going to be FMO/FGO lists. I seriously doubt that once you can do 9s, you will be coming close to the elite players who are AAAing FGOs. This isn't finished with only 7-10. Don't forget there's more to come.

Tbh, I've only read some of Stavie's posts but my thoughts:

As long as there is a continuous steady stream of more difficult songs to get tier points on, aren't they just as accurate as choosing the songs in clumps at the high end of each ingame difficulty? I mean the ingame difficulties when you get down to it are just arbitrary cutoffs anyway. Sure you may miss out on getting points for being able to play more songs at the high end of some difficulty but you can always get points for low-mid songs in the next difficulty up instead.

and I am forgetting that there are FMO/FGO lists to come with more than 25 songs each, so that's true

Basically, yeah... it seems like you forgot that we're including FMO/FGO's as well. There is no need to make all the TP granting VC's the hardest VC's. There shouldn't be any huge gap between players of similar skill. 7-10's are just a way of measuring how quickly you're progressing imo, and then the real test does start in the FMO range. No need to include *almost FMO* VC files.

There will be plenty of FMO+ files to test "skill" on if you don't feel there are enough VC files that do that.

[emulord]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

Since we're grabbing songs of several skill types and difficulties, I feel like the gaps won't be that significant for long. You need someone who can do the same type of patterns, but who is just mindblocked on tier point songs, in which case, its their own fault.

Also, why the hate on older files? reading incorrect colors / backgrounds / blue is a skill as well. Id actually be in favor of having Story of Snowman and sunshine girl and 136.6, Marissa or P4U v2, but I doubt other people would agree.
If you want to have good blue charts, CIA Rave, Beethoven Virus, Molto vivace are good charts.
Good incorrect colors: Domani, Automata, Delirium

[igotrhythm]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

Automata is not incorrectly colored. The BPM just spikes at that point. Agree with Domani/Delirium, though (both of which also throw in a REALLY BRIGHT background!).

Edit: Just went and fixed my Domani (about damn time...I remember being top 100 on that), and I have found that like Delirium, the real test of the song is consistency. The color errors in both songs force the player to focus on the patterns while staying on the beat, so they are worthy challenges for up and coming players.

[i love you]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

@emulord: Honestly, I would like to keep the legacy files off the Tier Point system. As for older files, I do not mind having older songs into the system however it's good to have newer ones into the list as well. Also, remember that we are currently dealing with D-VC right now so stay focused picking songs in that idea.

[Poison-]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

+1 for not having Legacy songs in the TP system.

[SK8R43]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

+1 for having Legacy songs in the TP system

[i love you]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

Alright guys, expect a new VC list update within a few hours!

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

Can't wait. Nice to see updates on this so frequently. Hopefully the community comes to a consensus so we can finalize this list and bring it out to the public.

[Poison-]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

I'm not sure if this was mentioned somewhere yet, but do you guys have an idea of how many TPs there will be?

[i love you]

Re: Completely Revised Official Tier Point System

This is taking longer than I thought so the list will be posted tomorrow at noon.

@Poision-: At the moment, we do not know lol