Official Tier Point System Thread

[rushyrulz]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

Ska Cha Cha x.x

AAAd that mother****er on mirror earlier today :/
9 my ass..

[Plan_Bsk81127]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

I'm not saying be mushy, but if people feel like they are being attacked it's generally gonna start an argument. I usually try my best to get my point across but not "offend" either. It doesn't always work but hey we can only try our best.

The scores thread thing to me isn't really a big issue I mean so what if there's two threads now it's not hurting anything. And there were people trying to post their scores in the score thread but it was like everytime one of us lower people posted something someone was posting some OMG score. So it was kinda like a feeling of not belonging because there were always such amazing scores being posted that it felt like no one was going to notice these lower scores anyways. So people stopped posting there. Now the newer people have their thread where they're doing their thing and then there's still the FFR scores thread where whoever can post that feels like it.

And this is where(without making it sound mean) I feel people need to stop throwing themselves into that mindset because it is sort of coming off as you are blaming the top players for posting scores good for them. Nobody is ever going to get good by doubting themselves by looking at the top playing and feeling like they arent good enough. All those guys were at their level at one point and they worked to get to where they are now, these people need to do the same and not compare themselves to those upper players.

The difference from the [Oni] issue is that there's actually things in this aspect of the game (skill tokens/achievement tokens) that are actually attainable by those who are just starting or by those who are somewhat seasoned. Tiers on the other hand, are considerably more difficult. I understand that it was a top-player-exclusive thing, but there really shouldn't be something that completely shoves away newer players. Everything should be balanced: for every hard chart, there's easier one; for every difficult token, there's an easier one; for every difficult tier achievement, there's...

...there's nothing.

And my post that you quoted was referring to kmay, not you.

The thing I see is that the tier points have been fine all these years being for the top players like intended and nobody complained about them being unfair to lower level players, just curious like all of a sudden now its all against against lower players when it has been fine all this time. FFR really need one HUGE makeover. We are a community based site now, lets make a hardcore change to things. FFR is based off of DDR, so do things like the multiple difficulties, organize the tokens into levels that go by difficulty(lv 1 tokens = easy, etc), and so on and so on. I might as well agree now that this change for lower tiers being added since my point in why not is obviously going nowhere. =\

[kmay]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

@ kmay

It's not including every difficulty, it's including the top 4 (5 with 13s) difficulties, and only a select few. It makes the tier list more sizable and more easily achievable.

@ bmah

Fei Longer, Starlight, Legendary Etude, The Games We Played Part 5 - all songs that are borderline and should be contested, haha

so adding some 9's to the list will make everyone happy? i can deal with that, just not too many, they can just act as a little buffer or transition i guess...


but was did we really need 3 pages to say that? "add some 9's to the TP list" is a lof different than making it for low level players because i know when i first started brightone was the hardest song i could combo, with severe mashing. so its not really helping low level players at all. first off they will be like 2/2 or 3/3 and the req's will be AAA or under 5 goods...

[Fantasticone]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

Would half a point requirements for some easy songs be doable? Like .5 points for a FC on Seven or something?

[One Winged Angel]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

to add to potential 9's: ivaltek, 101 kittens, forsaken neon, TBotM

[MrMagic5239]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

Ivaltek should be a 10 >=|

[rushyrulz]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

lol regardless, looks like it's going on either way

[Plan_Bsk81127]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

Might as well mention some 9's that could be part of this:

Ivaltek
Melted Marble
Toph's Op
Brainwave
Ska cha cha
Shining Sky
Glove Stage
Otters Dance
Tell me a Story

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

Now that we're actually past the hurricane of flaming and attacking one another, let's actually target the tier issue.

We have some songs listed for the topic, it hasn't been decided how low the tiers are going to go; mostly everyone is saying 9s, I said 8s but it might not be taken down too low.

The best way I see to do this: assign a point value to each difficulty that is static throughout the same level, with the exception of those files that are on the border of each level having a +/- 1 tolerance (in the direction they are being contested in).

If a song is being contested for a lower tier value, the requirements should be loosened up a bit because they are a difficulty level that is rated in game one level higher than the rest of the songs within this value.

If a song is being contested for a higher tier value, the requirements should be tightened up a bit because they are a difficulty level that is rated in game one level lower than the rest of the songs within this value.

Once this is said and done, you can use overall level stat statistics (AAAs/FCs) to base off the lower songs (8s/9s), and then start using the score board for those that actually have a top 200 that varies. If a scoreboard indicates slightly lower scores than another song in the same level, the requirements should be slightly looser than one that has a fairly tight and solid board.

EDIT: If there are any songs within the 7/8 border, the requirement can be included in the 8 group but should be considerably tightened.

[bmah]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

but was did we really need 3 pages to say that? "add some 9's to the TP list" is a lof different than making it for low level players because i know when i first started brightone was the hardest song i could combo, with severe mashing. so its not really helping low level players at all. first off they will be like 2/2 or 3/3 and the req's will be AAA or under 5 goods...

lol looks like there's still some confusion as to what we're aiming for

I think I'll add to my older post regarding goals.

We also have to define tier point accessibility because there's going to be arguments about what it means to be a "top player" vs a "lower-level" player.

I think the approach for defining the boundaries of accessibility is to make a list of "troublesome" songs from difficulty 8 and up. You can't avoid the subjectivity in this part, so you'll have to make do. The second thing is to divide each song into whatever tp requirements are necessary. If you want the ultimate measure, you'd have to do site statistics on each song, but that's really complicated. So for simplification, I'll just assume that players should approach the TP list when they can cleanly PA a song (not necessarily SDG, but maybe several double-digit goods with few or no avgs). It already HAS been said or implied that the TP list is for those who play the game with a remote degree of seriousness - that's my rationale to the definition of a low-level TIER POINT PLAYER.

i.e. We're making the game more accessible, but there are limits to playing the "tier point" game. We could extend it further and further, but it'll get huge and messy. And since tier points ARE for people who actually gives a rat's ass about FFR, you can certainly define a lower-end boundary. kmay's concerns in the quote basically demonstrate that there has to be limits to this system: yes, we recognize you want to play the game seriously if you mash Brightone but unfortunately there has to be a cutoff line. The change to this system is to satisfy a greater group of players, but the question is to what extent should the system apply to. My answer to that is that the bare minimum might be around 20 goods for the lowest-level song with an average amount of notes (you'll have to define these yourself guys), and maybe that might be slightly too generous. Yeah, I made that up just now, but at least you have to draw the line somewhere, right?

p.s. on that half tier point idea, I think that'll lead to the messy side of things

[TC_Halogen]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

I think the approach for defining the boundaries of accessibility is to make a list of "troublesome" songs from difficulty 8 and up. You can't avoid the subjectivity in this part, so you'll have to make do.

I like this idea. I can think of quite a few within each difficulty level too:

9s:
Legendary Etude - 2nd half of the file is fairly troublesome
Ivaltek - strange patterns
Tell Me A Story (Compendium Mix) - 2nd half
Forsaken Neon - speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed

10s:
Southern Cross - all around technical [ex-FMO]
DIDJ PVC - awetlgslhjtlhkj bursts
Vertex Beta - Streaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam [ex-FMO]
M.A.M.A. - obvious reasons
Kanon-Kanon - heated debate between 10/11 existed for this one

just a generalized list, for now - I'm sure the community can come up with a fairly solid list, although subjective arguments will follow.

[i love you]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

Attention people, we have a new plan now.

We are going to keep this current list that we have now but we are also going to add in 20 Very Difficult files, 30 Challenging files, and 30 Very Challenging files so that will add up to a total of 200 songs in the tier point list. Also, just to let you guys know, we are not going to choose any blue note syndrome files or any widget files for any of these excluding the FMO/FGO files. We like iironiic's idea but it will need some system work so for now, we are just going to do it this way until further notice.

PS: The main reason why we made this update a lot stricter previously is that already a few people were about to get MAX tier point, which is a bad thing as a measure of top-end player's skill.

[jimerax]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

well ok we'll determine additional req songs first.

The amount of req songs is still acceptable I guess.

criteria for those:
- quality files (well-synced/structured)
- possibly medium length (1:00-3:00 is preferable)
- possibly have some unique, but not awkward features (aka we want various type of songs)
- non secret, purchased, token, s-token songs
- files that have correct noteskin, and no BG

[remedy1502]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

I was writing a very long post of my opinion but I guess it doesn't really matter lol.
Basically this:
Lots of people not good at FFR (these people don't post so we don't really think of them, while still being an active player)
Tier points good measure for personal improvement since you can see the number rise each time you get a point.
The earlier you see the first one, the better (while still out of reach for players just starting, tier points should be worked towards, not easy in the slightest)

Anyway, I improved a ton after getting my first TP (FC on ESC, who else had that as their first lol) only because I saw the improvement. Levelrank has too many songs to look at. Whereas TPs just go up and up as you get better. Easier to give yourself goals imo. Look at the list and say "ok I will FC/PA/AAA this song today." Or, "I will get X number of tier points today."

I like that some 8s, 9s, and 10s are being added though. Just like when the tier list was first created. Sure, people get better, more people get good at hard songs. But just as we get better, newer players take our spots down below. They deserve the same chance of achieving TPs like we did.

[TheSaxRunner05]

Re: Official Tier Point System Thread

This change probably wont affect the top players, who have AAA'd these songs anyways, and give a chance for people like me to get non-Mashed TP

Just looked and saw the TP list became tighter on the high songs - good idea, even though it put me from 22+TP down to three (Still mashed ones) =(

I'm looking forward to lower levels with tier points