sigh, fantranstic, contd

[Cavernio]

To continue my thread (I suppose I should've put what I'm putting down here in the initial post instead making a seemingly stupid, boring post), yes, I do think its that I'm hitting the arrows off-beat. No, I wasn't complaining the stepfile's too hard or something, and yes, I know its a difficult song.
The thing is, it certainly feels like I'm processing the steps properly enough so that I'll be able to hit all the arrows. I know it happens often that my intake processing speed is there, but my fingers or output just aren't, but it seems especially prominent with this song.
Was it the intention of the stepfile's creator to try and do something like this with this song in particular? Are the arrows purposefully slightly off-beat randomly or something?
I guess I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this same phenomenon with this song, that you always do worse on it than it seems you should, or have the same issue of being able to intake the arrows properly, but just suck at hitting them with correct timing, either on Fantranstic or any other song for that matter.

I've honestly thought about putting this in CT, but I don't think it'll be accepted there. In fact, I've got a bunch of ideas about processing and implicit learning and FFR, and it seems like an awesome opportunity to think about these things. (If I were more gung-ho, I'd be thinking up cognitive psychology experiments that I could run using FFR, and I'd be asking important people if I could use it as such, while also begging to let more specific stats about songs be logged for the people who would be part of the experiment.)

[chickendude]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd

dunno, lol

You need to improve the speed of your fingers .After a while, the brain processing speed isn't what limits your ability; it becomes more related to your finger speed.

[windsurfer-sp]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd

I defintely think that there are some songs that certain people have trouble with more than others compared to similar or easier songs. As to Frantastic ill play around see.

[Ziin]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd

Personally, I find fantranstic considerably easier than MAX forever and CIA Rave, both of which are supposed to be easier than fantranstic.

There are a few songs which I just know I can do awesome on, but end up missing a few steps somewhere. Song for the Nihonjins is a good example. I'm pretty sure I can FC that, and I'm pretty sure I've hit every single arrow, even hit every single arrow with a perfect attack, but just not in order.

Occasionally I'll get the feeling that I know I'm going to miss one soon, and I'm a little off beat. Generally that happens on Breaking the Common, but a whole lot less now that I've fced it.

One of the strange things about fantranstic is that some of the notes in the actual song are off beat, or use a piano-forte sound, making it seem like its a tad bit off beat. I think the same thing happens, to an even greater degree in Night of Flight.

[Tasselfoot]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd

AFAIK, fantran isn't offbeat... I know I consistently SDG it.


ALso, perhaps you'd be so kind as to post a SS of your score? You've given no indication as to your skill level on the song. Are you working to FC it for the 1st time? Rarely FC? Trying to SDG it? Different advice could be given depending on your skill.

[Cavernio]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd

geez, I never thought about telling my score. I FC pretty much nothing. I don't know what SDG is. I don't know what an SS is either.

My best score is just under 600,000, but I probably regularly get scores in the 400,000.

I just want to know WHY I find this song so difficult. The offbeatness seems like it could be it. There's even this one section where there's simply 2 arrows alternating, and I always choke there. I think I've gotten every arrow there once. But it always seems like I'm on-time with it.

[Tasselfoot]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd

it's called a trill... those "2 alternating arrows" and they are much harder to hit than normal stream. why? because when you hit them, you feel like you're hitting them... but you actually aren't hitting them fast enough. try hitting them faster than you feel is needed. also, if you're playing 1 handed or spread, the 1st set of trills, around 330, are 1st all-left-handed then all-right-handed... a much harder set to trill than a set of trills that work between hands (for 4-finger/spread).

SDG = Single Digit Goods.

And frankly, if your score best is about 600k, that means you probably aren't even FCing up to the trills... which would be a 300+ combo + 900 notes, should be at least 700k+...

really, the song seems like it is just too difficult for you, currently. try working on something easier like hanabi... or even easier like hungarian dance #5, stalled out and sushi bars... burnout, fett's vette...

what is the hardest song you CAN FC?

[talisman]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd

there's alot of visual processing involved in playing ffr or sm or ddr or pretty much any bemani game. What I find is that the best way to get better at "reading" the arrows is just to focus more. At first, your mind may balk at having to digest a huge sixteenth stream and you'll only glaze over it, missing alot.

For trills there are two factors in play... one is that your mind will gloss over a trill, clumping into one pattern, and this will actually slow down how fast you can do it. If you actually shift your attention to the individual arrows in the trill, it's easier to hit them all. That said, some trills can just be too damn fast for your fingers no matter how well you can read them.

And about it seeming off-beat. It isn't. But because your reactions are late, or early, or whatever, it may seem like it. When people judge sync they internally aren't comparing where the sounds match up with the arrows on the screen, but where they match up with the arrows as you hit them on the keyboard. So until you've pretty much perfected a song in terms of accuracy, it's hard to know if your judgments of proper sync are correct or not. (This is the reason so many new people's simfiles are horrid... to them it feels right, but that's because they suck at playing still).

[Cavernio]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd

The area I'm talking about I wouldn't call a trill. (Although we could still be thinking of the same place.) They're too spread out.
I'd much rather play songs which some people deem are too hard for me than sit there and play easy ones which I can FC if I don't slip up at some point in time. Maybe this means I'm just gearing myself up to never get my timing right, but its actually fun this way. I play songs which are rated higher than fantranstic regularly, but I'm not upset that I don't do amazingly on them because I just know they're too hard in a way I can understand. No song bothers me more than this one. In any case, no, I'm nowhere NEAR FC on fantranstic. I have issues with almost the entire song, not just the one place I was talking about.

I'm not sure the hardest song I've FC. I must've FC fett's vett and burnout before though. Probably been really close on sushi bars if I haven't actually.

I've noticed the 'clumping' thing myself, for trills and other patterns, especially single, fast repeats. It was very hard to be able to keep pressing one key while doing other things with my 3 other fingers. I've not noticed a speed problem for them except for one song (I have no idea which one); its more of a problem of actually getting the timing exactly right. I have a bad time with keeping the timing constant even once I've got it right at first, and it actually seems I go faster than I should be most of the time. (I tend to get boos before misses).

I haven't outwardly noticed more of a problem with only right handed trills. I have with left handed ones, but that's a physical issue I have with my left hand. I keep trying to learn the game using my right hand for the bottom-row arrows, and my thumb of my left hand (the only finger I've got on it) to press the top arrow, but I get too frustrated because its almost like starting at square 1 again.

I've also got this weird thing where when I'm not focussing more, I often perform better than when I do. (or at least, it seems that way) At one point not too long ago, when I played way too much, I actually noticed me improving when I focused, but my playing's petered off since.

I get what's being said about the reactions matching up, except that I don't have an issue with it for other songs, at least, not nearly as badly as this one.
Well, whatever I've got with this song, it appears that no one else who's read this appears to have a similar issue with this song as I do.

edit: I just did hungarian dance #5 FC first try

[Shashakiro]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd

Fantranstic is one of the signle most onbeat files in the whole game, so it can't be that it's offbeat.

The stream in Fantranstic is quite fast for your skill level, and I wouldn't expect you to be able to FC it very easily...play songs with slower stream (such as Sushi Bars, Domani, X-Dreamer, etc) to try to get a feel for stream before you try to read the streams in Fantran.

[Tasselfoot]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd

fyi... http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...ad.php?t=37697 ffr picture dictionary. so you can learn the terms. those single notes in a row... called jacks.


and, it could just be the song. I am absolutely awful at Klung Kung for some reason. Like... I've FCed once, only FCed to the ending running mans a few other times... and my PA is god awful. Like, Uber Rave v2 is the SAME bpm... and I get like 20ish goods on that, tops (minus the running man pattern)... but Klung, which is about 30-40% more arrows... I get about 90-110 goods on, almost consistently. I've gotten 1 or 2 fluke 40s or 50s goods, but I'm almost always around 100.

And I have no idea why. I can do songs faster with much better PA, and songs of equal speed with much better PA. It is just that one song. *shrugs*. My solution... I don't play Klung Kung.

Like... I've gotten PA as good on Strangeprogram as I've gotten on KK04 (best pa on SP is in the low low 100s...), yet SP is 40 bpm faster. And fairly similar amount of notes (1442 vs 1650s or so)

[Cavernio]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd

Whoa, there're differences in stream times??? Man, that might be why. I've never noticed a difference in stream times for FFR. I do if I try to play stepmania or something, and it always ****s me up. (I don't really play FFR2, so I don't know about that.) Stream time is different from bpm though, right? Streaming is the speed with which they scroll, while bpm is, well, beats per minute, and you can actually have a high bpm streaming relatively slowly, which just means the arrows are more condensed, right? Or am I not making any sense, or do we automatically adjust bpm to stream time or something similar?

Thanks for the link.

[Tasselfoot]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd

there is no such thing as "Stream Time"


the speed of the stream is based off of BPM. Like Breaking the Common is a much lower BPM (180bpm 8th notes... aka, 90bpm stream) than Hanabi (140bpm) which is much lower than Fantran (180bpm)

So basically, for every 1 note you hit in BtC, you're hitting 2 in Fantran (at least for the stream sections in Fantran. The non-stream 8th notes are the exact same speed as BtC, only they have jumps and gallops which makes it much harder).

90 beats per minute is 1.5 4th notes per second or 6 notes per second for stream. fantran's stream is 12 notes per second... and for the trills, that is 6 keytaps on each arrow key in 1 second (the trills are more than 12 notes long, if I recall correctly)...

hitting the same key 6 times in 1 second isn't THAT hard... but it is a lot faster than you'd think it is.



as we've said.... you just don't have the speed (and possibly the reading ability) to comprehend a song as fast as fantran. hopefully that'll come with some time and practice... but you do need to work up to it with slower songs, like ones that are in the 160 range... such as CIA Rave.

you also really need to learn the terminology and how the game works. so much of the game really is mental, and if you don't even know how it works, how can you expect to master it?

[windsurfer-sp]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd



This is the best I can do w/out mashing the trills. I dont really think there is anything overly wrong with the step file I just think that the trills are to fast for me atm and so I will practice on other songs in the mean time which is prob the best idea for you.

[j-rodd123]

Re: sigh, fantranstic, contd