Queue/Batch Discussion Thread

[Doug31]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

Ok then, I no longer like EHHS, since it apparently got my opinion on how much I like other songs invalidated.

[Cyanite]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

Judges don't care about the opinions that the judged have about the judging. You'll find that holds true everywhere where there are judges, and people or work being judged. Courtrooms, competitions, sports referees, everything. That's just how judging works, and we're no different.

Rebirth, who's probably got more files in the game than anyone else currently, and has MOST of his files accepted first time, is still complaining.

Apparently your analogy doesn't work in this case if the people who are getting what they want for the most part are still complaining.

[Shashakiro]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

Doug: Not at all. Just saying, one person's view of what's good and what's not doesn't mean anything...we're really looking for the majority view, which we gather from the reactions to the release of each song. I know for a fact that what you said there (all non-easy files since Frozen are meh) isn't the majority view at all (Blaze, for example, was very well-received), so it doesn't really mean much to me as a level admin.

Cyanite: Rebirth wants 100% of his files to be accepted. Thus, he isn't getting what he wants. Read his posts better.

[Tasselfoot]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

not that this is really the point even... but we ARE playing now 70+ files a week. we only play each file once, and are usually playing unique files for 4-5 hours at a time...

as such, sometimes we may be overly harsh on a song, or underly harsh... basically, what i see is that Shash and I need to add in another layer.

I'm thinking that we do this, going forward:

Step 1: Play all the files in a batch, and judge them exactly as we're doing now.
Step 2: Re-Play all the files we've accepted for the queue aproximately 1 week after originally playing them... and re-evaluating them for whether or not they are in fact queueworthy.

I think that adding in Step 2 will be a better quality control measure that is the easiest to do overall. The biggest downside is that it would mean that getting your file into the queue the 1st time wouldn't guarentee that it'll actually be in the queue. It'll have to get past a 2nd playing at a future date as well.


Thoughts?

[MixMasterLar]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

I think that adding in Step 2 will be a better quality control measure that is the easiest to do overall. The biggest downside is that it would mean that getting your file into the queue the 1st time wouldn't guarentee that it'll actually be in the queue. It'll have to get past a 2nd playing at a future date as well.

Thoughts?

Sounds like a good idea to me. The only problem I see is that the level of bitching will go up, but the game will be better off this way, and crappy sims wont sneak in (sup Incognito?)

[Tasselfoot]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

you can tell that Shash and I really don't give a rats ass about bitching from simfile makers... we care about bitching from PLAYERS. and this measure will be in response to the player's bitching.

basically, neither Shash nor I even remembered what the file for Incog was when we released it... I think this should help out a lot.

We won't put Step 2 into practice retroactively. Anything currently in the queue will stay as is.

[Doug31]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

Doug: Not at all. Just saying, one person's view of what's good and what's not doesn't mean anything...we're really looking for the majority view, which we gather from the reactions to the release of each song. I know for a fact that what you said there (all non-easy files since Frozen are meh) isn't the majority view at all (Blaze, for example, was very well-received), so it doesn't really mean much to me as a level admin.

Cyanite: Rebirth wants 100% of his files to be accepted. Thus, he isn't getting what he wants. Read his posts better.

Blaze was a good song, and there were other well-stepped songs like switchback more recent than frozen. They're just not hard enough to be very exciting for me anymore.

Haven't decided if I like step 2, though.

[Valtrix]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

Blaze was a good song, and there were other well-stepped songs like switchback more recent than frozen. They're just not hard enough to be very exciting for me anymore.

Well Doug, I think from now on I'm going to making and submitting really difficult files. Hopefully I can challenge myself and decrease the workload that Tass and Shash get xP

[Shashakiro]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

Too much text, here's my response: yeah, we listen to the "fans" (aka the players), we've said this a zillion times. Also, we try to use the same standards when judging every file in a batch (guidelines could change from batch to batch), so yeah, it's fair in terms of songs vs other songs.

Seems like you're zooming into about a thousand other topics, and straying far away from the main one: the fact that, as Tass said, we don't give a rat's ass about the bitching of simfile authors. That hasn't changed, and probably won't.

You'll probably respond to this with another wall of text, which I will promptly ignore.

[Tasselfoot]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

Nixon... you're wrong about the judging. We release a file... that file isn't getting removed, ever. No matter how much bitching comes from it. We will, however, use the bitching to improve on our future judging.

How that shows that you're wrong? The law gets changed based on precident and changes in congress. Referees in football have instant replay from coaches challenges for on-spot changes in their calls... but there is also the competition commettee that will makes changes to the rules of the game in-between seasons based upon what happened in the previous season. Etc, etc, etc... EVERY judging process evolves from event to event based upon some form of outside factors, almost always in an attempt to improve upon the current system. We're no different.

To summerize... you're wrong.

[bmah]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

May I suggest something Shash? Maybe you and Tass can stop defending yourself so much against other people's objections and actually consider the outcomes between what you're currently doing and what other people suggest (e.g. Shash saying, "Too much text, here's my response: blablabla" and thus pretty much disregarding any other possibilities). It's easy not to admit mistakes (e.g. Tass makes a counterargument, valid or not, and thus, "to summarize...you're wrong"), and it's easy to assume that the current method of judging does not need any modifications, but I think you guys are overly stiff. Granted, both of you have increased the popularity of FFR to a new level (which I'm totally happy about), but realize that not all problems are solved yet.

I DO have issues with this system; however, you don't see me speaking out so much as hi19 or the others, because any objection is futile and I do want to have the best chances possible to get my submission in the game. As a player, I would not fully blame the simfile author for making "bad" steps; part of the blame IMO is due to the resistance of the judging system to adhere to any change (it has pros and cons, but seriously, it's not the best system, stop denying and ADMIT IT). But ultimately, it's up to you and Shash, and I have no more to say.

edit: about step 2 - I'm undecided on this.

[Rebirth0]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

You could do your, playing the file twice thing. But I really don't see why you can't tell if the file is good or bad after playing it one time. I certainly can.

Shash: I guess I can admit that I want all of my simfiles accepted, but who really doesn't? Now, I just want some more reason as to why my simfiles are rejected other than just "overstepped"

[hi19hi19]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

We're stubborn and we're also right so we don't listen to anything nyah nyah

Goodbye.

[Shashakiro]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

May I suggest something Shash? Maybe you and Tass can stop defending yourself so much against other people's objections and actually consider the outcomes between what you're currently doing and what other people suggest (e.g. Shash saying, "Too much text, here's my response: blablabla" and thus pretty much disregarding any other possibilities).

Like I said: I'm very open-minded, and I've listened and thought about every suggestion that's been made. The problem is, most of the time, all we're getting is bitching, not any actual offer of a better way. And none of the actual suggestions I've read would work, IMO. Either a lot more work is created for us, or not all the judges play all the files (inherently bad idea). If you or anyone can come up with a fairer way that doesn't cause one of those problems (less the first, especially the second) or any other obvious ones, I'm all ears.

It's easy not to admit mistakes (e.g. Tass makes a counterargument, valid or not, and thus, "to summarize...you're wrong"), and it's easy to assume that the current method of judging does not need any modifications, but I think you guys are overly stiff. Granted, both of you have increased the popularity of FFR to a new level (which I'm totally happy about), but realize that not all problems are solved yet.

We have no problem admitting mistakes (see Incognito), and we have no problem making modifications to the judging critera based on the reactions of the players. All that we refuse to do is act on the bitching of the file authors, because they're inherently biased and just want to have an easier/more fun time with getting files into the game, rather than having a vested interest in actually improving file quality.

because any objection is futile and I do want to have the best chances possible to get my submission in the game.

If you're suggesting that complaining about the system will cause us to judge your file more strictly, you're just wrong. Look at Hi19 and Rebirth: two of the complainers, and they probably get more files accepted than everyone else combined.

As a player, I would not fully blame the simfile author for making "bad" steps; part of the blame IMO is due to the resistance of the judging system to adhere to any change

Again, we have no problem changing the judging system based on the reactions of the players. That's not what this is about.

[Tasselfoot]

Re: A List of ALL the Songs in the FFR Queue

rebirth... when was the last time you went and played 70 unique and different files, by 20 or so different people, of vastly different difficulties and qualities... in either 1 or 2 big lump sittings?

vastly different than just playing a few files for ****s and giggles and judging. and yea, we could play everything twice... but then it'd likely take twice as long to update. each batch is a solid 5 hours or so worth of playing.

it isn't a cut and dry process. we aren't perfect. we do the best we can, and overall the results are positive. frankly, i'm quite happy with that. BUT... i definitely think that if we re-play those files we feel are of high quality a 2nd time, it'll better enable us to judge accordingly. especially since we'll go into that second playing with a mindset of "man, all these files better kick some ass, as we accepted them the 1st time through." plus, they'll be judged solely vs other accepted files, as opposed to ANY file.